TUNIC SIZES

[Doc]

I am trying to figure out the size of a tunic. It appears at least to me that in Mr. Summners book the final conclusion is that tunics are just big with respect to legionary use and narrowing them for reconstruction purposes would be incorrect.

The book further states that the excess material is in fact not a problem or an incovenience under any form of armor given some experimentation on the part of the Ermine Street Guard.

Althougth this appears to be the case given the sculptural evidence, how about the tunic of Sertorius Festus, Firmus Festus where scale armor is used and also the Musculata representations. In these representations, the tunics seem to be more tapered. I am not saying that they would be really tight fitting, but I do not see them being as voluminous as seen in the sculptures presented in Mr. Summners book. These tunics including the Prima Porta do not protrude throught the pteryges or bulge out from under the armpit area.

I just posted for my friend his pteryges and subarmalis which shows that the arm pteryges do not sit very nicely on the arm since the tunic is so voluminous. Yet observing the statues of where pteryges are found, the tunics seem more tailored.

The men in segmentatas on Trajan's column seem to have tapered sleeves. Of course this could only be the perspective of the sculpture. Nonethless, this voluminous tunic idea seems to be for the most part prevelant for tunics with no armor over them at least from the photos presented in Mr. Summners book.

The reason I am making the above statements is becasue the issue has me a little baffled. My friend whom I mentioned earlier is making another tunic since the one he has is so bulky that wearing the subamalis and pteryges over it causes the tunic material to bunch up and protrude throught the subarmalis arm hole and through the layers of pteryges even though he has three layer of pteryges on each arm. The weight of the three layers should be enough to keep them rather straight down on the arm as shown for most of the sulptures of musculata and scale armor (squamata or plumata).

The first bulky tunic he made was based on the measurments given in Mr. Summners book based on the ancient sources he quotes. Again however, as mentioned in his book, there is no real link fo these tunics or others as being for direct military use.

My friend is going to make a scale shirt thus I am wondering if tapering the tunic somewhat would be "incorrect".

To see what I am referring to about the pteryges not sitting straight down and material protruding through the subarmalis arm hole because of the tunics voluminosity go to the Reconstruction and Reenactment part and look at the post New Felt subarmalis and Linen pteryges.

Thanks for all your help

Paolo

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, not sure if this helps, but I wear a tunic, the design of which I took direct from Meestor Sumer's book, and it seems a good idea for it to protrude out of my subarmalis holes. If I get it right, the'sleevs' as such show out and protect me from the arm plates on the seg I wear.
I don't see a problem with them protruding under pturges either, but I agree, when you look at those wearing musculata, the sleeves seem to be a tailored tube visible under the prurges.
The design possibilities seem to be covered by other depictions in his series, one of which I am hoping to use once I get a Newstead/Stillfried seg! Or even a long sleeved hamata.

[Marcus Mummius]

Again however, as mentioned in his book, there is no real link fo these tunics or others as being for direct military use.

Soldiers are depicted in these tunics while doing heavy work though...

[Tarbicus]

This all assumes that we wear big baggy tunics correctly under armour. It's possible to fold one at the front like a jacket so it goes all neat and tidy, and if this was done I doubt it would protrude through the pteryges. Likewise, it can be folded at the back. If you take the tombstones of Festus and Firmus very literally, you have to accept that their scale armours (I don't see any musculata) have very short sleeves which could 'tube' the sleeves of the tunic.
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Tombstones are great for what we do, but perhaps it's sometimes possible to take them a bit too literally? That said, the Rhineland soldiers with their curved pleats can easily be mimicked with a baggy tunic, especially if the hem is pulled up and doubles over the tunic itself to above the waistline and under the belt. Doing that also leaves everything much neater and tidier, with the front and back halves overlapping each other.

What about the multitude of depictions of tunics being worn loose and unbelted in paintings, mosiacs, frescoes, etc? Why would the soldier change from the most common everyday tunic worn all over the Roman territories? I actually can't remember a single waisted tunic with sleeves depicted in such examples worn by common people. But, there are examples of high officials, statesmen, and emperors, whose tunics, when worn under the toga, seem to be more like what you're talking about, especially in sculpture.

Your friend's subarmalis with pteryges is excellent (though I think the waistline/feltline is maybe too low and should be at his navel), and I'm making a similar garb with detachable pteryges, although my torso piece will be like a linothorax anf fasten at one side. But, we don't know exactly how pteryges were constructed, and was there anything inside them to fortify them more and perhaps give them more weight? Would this make them less easy to part as your friend has found? Who knows. I'm leaving my pteryges open at the tops of the back sides so they form a pocket inside. This is to mess with adding different inner materials, like rawhide strips for added protection, etc.

But you still can't get away from unbelted and loose tunics in the pictorial record being shown as MASSIVE and very very long

[Doc]

Tarbicus,

I know that we should not really take tombstones too seriously.


The point of musulata is if you look at tombstones or other statues like Marcus Aurelius where the tunic is quite tailored.

Are you implying that the tunic could be gathered up under the armor in such a way that it renders the sleeves more tidy?

Sertorius does not have short sleeves. I spoke to the curator at the museum in Verona. They appear to be sleeves but are not. The scale armor is such that the top portion passes over the shoulder and borders the tricept muscle sort of like a bishops mantle. However, instead of being detachable like a mantle, it is integrated with the rest of the body.

The pteryges system that my friend had me post is something like 7kg; not light.

Thanks

Paolo

[Tarbicus]

Are you implying that the tunic could be gathered up under the armor in such a way that it renders the sleeves more tidy?

Sertorius does not have short sleeves. I spoke to the curator at the museum in Verona. They appear to be sleeves but are not. The scale armor is such that the top portion passes over the shoulder and borders the tricept muscle sort of like a bishops mantle. However, instead of being detachable like a mantle, it is integrated with the rest of the body.

Well, just like the squamata looks like it has very short sleeves, but according to the curator it doesn't, the sculpting could obviously also be wrong and idealised, where in real life the tunic could poke through the pteryges. However, if the pteryges overlap each other then that would hinder the tunic poking through, as there would be no gaps.

We should bear in mind that Graham does illustrate T-shaped tunics with short sleeves, and of course they could be worn under musculata for a tidier look. But I dare say fashion changed over time, and a mid-1st C tunic would look different to a mid-2nd C one, as they probably both would to a 2nd C BC tunic.

I don't see any need at all to worry about sleeves blousing out of a legionary's lorica armholes, and I do think your references to statue are restricted to those of higher social and military status. However, Caelius has his sleeves showing, and given the style of sculpture I think can be interpreted as blousing out from beneath his pteryges:
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/sto ... liusd2.jpg
Daverzus definitely doesn't have a T-cut, and even though he's not wearing armour, I see no reason why that tunic wouldn't and couldn't be worn under armour:
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

One thing that can make a difference to the length of a 'pillowcase' tunic's sleeves is if it's tied up at the back of the neck, and how wide a neck hole you have to allow for more of the sleeve hole to be pulled up. That makes a big difference to the sleeve length once tied.

Unfortunately, I disagree with the curator about the squamata sleeves, using both the aforementioned Caelius, and this next tombstone, as a clear example of why:
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/sto ... ctord1.jpg

[Doc]

Tarbicus,

The pictures you posted are very good but they are not scale shirts. Having sleeves on a scale shirt is not a good idea since the scales will catch each other when moving the arm. (arm to body scales catching)

To avoid this, the bottom of the sleeve cannot have scales but some cloth only.

Besides all the reconstructions I have seen of scale armor are all sleevless. They all finish where a hamata finishes.

I have seen two scale shirts like those of Sertoius. One belongs to a gentleman I believe is in Sweden. He made a squamata similar to sertorius where he has a partial scaled sleeve with cloth on the bottom.

The other is Dan Peterson with his plumata. There are no sleeves on that. What he has is the situation that the curator described to me. Sertorius is considered to be wearing a plumata not a squamata (curator did not mention this). If one then considers that Sertorius has scales on mail, then the mail part would be similar to a short sleeve hamata.

But for the scales to go over the pectoral region into the shoulder giving a smooth finish, you cannot have a bonified sleeve like in a hamata. Thus you get the situation where the scales go over the shoulder bordering the tricept as described above. The body under the arm is scaled making the bishop type mantle appear as a sleeve.

[Marcus Mummius]

On this miniature you can see an imterpretation of Firmus' 'sleeves'

[Tarbicus]

Paolo, are you discussing the tunic or scale shirts?

Just to be clear: I don't accept evidence of Trajan's Column as anything other than a very good story to tell and fantastic Imperial propaganda, but it is certainly no evidence of the detail of soldier's equipment in any whatsoever; I accept that men of senatorial rank would wear better fitting tunics for high profile portraits, but that is no evidence for the common legionary and should not be applied to them at all, especially using Trajan's Column. The lower classes are invariably shown to be wearing the large pillowcase style of tunic, and these are the social classes the legionaries came from. What I would hate to see is senatorial ranks being used as the models for tunics whenever someone wants to have pteryges for their legionary impression. Your friend's experience of the tunic and pteryges is no indication that the tunic must have been tapered or closer fitting, but is more likely an indication that his pteryges need modifying in some way, and there was some aspect to pteryges that no-one has come across yet.

Bear in mind that when someone posed to have their portrait sculpted, and there were unsightly parts of the tunic poking through their pteryges, they would probably push the tunic back under the pteryges. They're not documentary war photographs, but self-important statements created for posterity and to give the best impression for their memory once they have gone. To illustrate the difference in modern terms:

[Satorius]

Ave,

In working on my musculata, I studied Travis Clark's website which I am sure many of you have seen.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/musculata2.htm

The fit of the tunica vs. that of the musculata is shown in many images on his site. Tunica sleeves range from tapered and bunched up above the elbow, as on Flavius Domitianus in the Vatican Museum:

http://thepaolas.com/Emperors/Emperors/Domitian.jpg

to unobtrusive sleeves as on the Primaporta Augustus.

Granted these images are of Emperors, it is the Emperors who would routinely establish norms through their personal preferences. The range of acceptable tunica fit together with the lack of fabric bunching up and poufing out from the armor leads me to think that the Romans weren't any fonder of this effect than we are.

Fabric choice: Many of these images show plenty of folds under the pteruges below the waist. Achieving these pleasing folds calls for some volume in the cut. Lighter weight fabric would be needed. Light but very strong fabric, such a finer grade wool, or wool-silk blend or wool blended with light weight linen. A heavier weight wool, linen or cotton will resist falling correctly.

Cheers,

Satorius
(L.M. Satorius)

[Tarbicus]

it is the Emperors who would routinely establish norms through their personal preferences. The range of acceptable tunica fit together with the lack of fabric bunching up and poufing out from the armor leads me to think that the Romans weren't any fonder of this effect than we are.

Two definitive statements are made there as if they're just a given fact, when they're actually assumptions:
1) What is the evidence for the Emperor defining the tunic style of the common soldiery? I've yet to see an Emperor's statue with highly exaggerated folded crescent pleats below his waist.
2) Who is the 'we' that don't like the bunching up and poufing out? I personally don't mind it at all. I'm sure there are those who do mind, but I think you're assuming your own tastes are everyone's.

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Paulo

I am trying to figure out the size of a tunic. It appears at least to me that in Mr. Summners book the final conclusion is that tunics are just big with respect to legionary use and narrowing them for reconstruction purposes would be incorrect.

Well a size is given in the book from a military document found in Egypt as well as measurements of other examples from actual roman period tunics. Most of the Roman tunics found at this period are rectangular but a recent discovery from Mons Claudianus could be called the classic re-enactors 'T' shaped version. It had been patched together from an old cloak so it may not have been a military tunic although it does confirm that the design existed.

Experiments with both the 'T' shape and rectangular designs have shown that they can both be worn under armour and both appear to look like the Trajanic legionary tunics shown on the column. With a blanket type material the 'T' shape does not drape as well as the rectangular which in turn works better if made from a very fine wool.

Fashions in Roman tunics changed and we also now know that soldiers owned and certainly wore more than one tunic. However it is difficult to marry the available and often incomplete archaeological, literary and artistic evidence. Frequently we are often seeking answers to questions that will probably never be answered.

As Tarbicus said it is a mistake to impose our tastes when attempting to recreate Roman tunics or anything else for that matter. It is also wrong to make assumptions that because we can not make things work the Romans could not do it either. I also suspect that in many cases people make their armour first and then try to fit everything else in!

Graham.

[Marcus Mummius]

Paolo, are you discussing the tunic or scale shirts?

Could this thread perhaps be split up in a thread about tunics and a thread about the squamatae of the Sertorii?

Vale,

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

As Tarbicus said it is a mistake to impose our tastes when attempting to recreate Roman tunics or anything else for that matter. It is also wrong to make assumptions that because we can not make things work the Romans could not do it either. I also suspect that in many cases people make their armour first and then try to fit everything else in!

Graham.

That was the reason I made my subarmalis first, then oredered a set of SEG. Didn't help much first tile around, but the next set was made to order.... With many measurements to ensure as good a fit as possible!

Also with a baggy tunic, you can get it to do what you want to a surprising degree!

[Satorius]

Ave,

I don't hold that the Emperor's personal tastes can be proven absolutely to filter down to the soldier in the field. But it would be a hard case to make that they did not filter out to the society at large, of which the military was a part.

I am glad for all those who pursue the fuller look of tunica coming out from under the armor and regret any slight to your preferences. Your look may have been widespread and is much easier to achieve.

For those who seek to avoid this effect, it helps to cut your fabric on the bias. Prior to cutting, turn the fabric 45 degrees so that the threads don't run vertically and horizontally, instead they run diagonally. Structurally the fabric cannot support itself as well and falls better, especially into folds. There can be slightly more waste in the cutting, but for some the results are worth it.

Thanks,

Satorius
(LM Satorius)