SNAPPY SOLDIER TUNIC PLEAT

[tlclark]

Graham, I also just found an old RAT post of yours, posted via Aitor;

Many surviving Roman tunics show evidence of alteration to shorten the length by means of tucks around the waist. Perhaps and I stress perhaps, these tucks were deemed unsightly and in the case of the military they were covered by waistbands.

By "tucks", do you mean they were actually sewn in place? That would be very interesting to try out if so.

Could the "tucks" be gathers or gathered seams?

Travis

[Tarbicus]

Could the "tucks" be gathers or gathered seams?

What about a drawstring? Hmm, do I start hacking into my tunic?......

As an aside, Room 49 at the British Museum is closed :evil: They may relocate the main items elsewhere, but don't make a special ad hoc trip there expecting to see nice shiny Roman dangerous things until possibly April. :? I was not happy yesterday.

[Tarbicus]

Okay, it's easy-peasy.

Put on your tent-proportioned tunic and just let it hang.

Put on your cingulum but not tightly, just fairly loosely ensuring the tunic is even around the front, and grab a handful of tunic at each of your sides above the cingulum.

Pull up until the bottom of the tunic is at the desired height above the knees.

Tighten your belt.

And that's it. The pleats happen naturally. To help with the hanging material at the sides above the cingulum tuck them into the belt while leaving enough for your arms to move freely.

Added: Here's a photo using the above method, with a waistband.

[Tarbicus]

I remember while doing my research on Roman tunic colours that I asked members of the Antonine Guard based in Scotland why they had adopted yellow tunics. Their answer was because they had heard that Caesar's Legion based in Alexandra had used that colour from locally obtained dye. Unfortunately they could not supply me with any ancient source and nether could I find one myself. So if anyone out there knows of it I would certainly like to hear of it and I guess so would the Antonine Guard.

Hi Graham, I suppose if you interpret figure #3 from this Pompeii fresco as being a soldier there's a possibility: tavern (from Legio XX website)
Their website also refers to Arrian saying cavalry wore yellow tunics. Perhaps the above-mentioned fresco is a match between a soldier and a cavalryman?

Also, are thesethe tunics you referred to dyed with Weld?

There is also reference to the possibility of a yellow waistband in this paper (PDF format), THE ORIGINS OF ROMAN HISTORICAL COMMEMORATION IN THE VISUAL ARTS by Peter J. Holliday, on page 34.

[John M McDermott]

One thing is for sure; the figures in the first fresco are definitely wearing very baggy tunics.

Question for Tarbicus: Your tunic shows some sleeve clavii. What method of attachment did you use?

[Tarbicus]

One thing is for sure; the figures in the first fresco are definitely wearing very baggy tunics.

John, funnily enough, if you look at the guy on the right wearing red, his tunic flaps over his hips at the sides just like the one I'm working on, but maybe less so.

Question for Tarbicus: Your tunic shows some sleeve clavii. What method of attachment did you use?

It's actually part of the weave of the fabric, I think just as some kind of 'edging' to the roll maybe. I haven't finished the tunic yet, and am seriously considering keeping them there, in which case I may use the tunic as an example of what a soldier might have worn for a night on the town to impress the local ladies, like most modern squaddies would do the equivalent of 8)

One thing I must say, though, is that your method of using fibulae for creating the pleats does create far more regular ones as seen as on many grave stele. I tried with my tent-like tunic and it's actually very difficult to recreate, whereas it works with a thinner tunic. I'm wondering if regional variations in the width of tunic had anything to do with it?

[John M McDermott]

Where did you get fabric with woven in stripes?

As Roman soldiers were citizens, in many cases, they had the right to wear the clavii??

[Tarbicus]

Where did you get fabric with woven in stripes?

A UK fabric supplier on Ebay would you believe. He got the material from Spain, but the red was sold to a museum and I ended up with the yellow. I've asked him to let me know if he gets any more, but he says it's highly unlikely. stores.ebay.co.uk/Price-Immaterial
He's very upfront if he doesn't know what the material is, but will also test the material to see if it's natural or not in a random way, as seen for this item which may actually be of some interst to some:
Beige sackcloth, museum, medieval reenactment fabric

As Roman soldiers were citizens, in many cases, they had the right to wear the clavii??

I thought they went down the front and back, and not the sides at the seam?

[tlclark]

Jim,

First off, great impression. I think it looks great.

One thing I must say, though, is that your method of using fibulae for creating the pleats does create far more regular ones as seen as on many grave stele.

I think that John's looks great if you compare it to the pozzouli figures or the figures from the arch of Sept. Severus. I think that the regular pleats are more a product of the style of Mainz stelae. On more naturalistic images, we see pleats EXACTLY like John's, it depends on what you are trying for. I think it's easier to re-enact an impression from a more naturalistis source. Going after an impression of something that was intended to be stylized in the first place seems like a wild goose chase, , but that's just me.

It's all part of that same style vs form argument you and I are having elsewhere.



Travis

[John M McDermott]

Fibulae also help belting the tunic.

Yes, I agree, clavii go up the front and back.

Good work, Tarbicus. This is state of the art stuff.

[Martin Moser]

Hi Jim,

very nice pictures, made me want to try out the same with my tunic, which probably is quite a bit heavier than what you have got, making the pleats not come out as sharp as with yours. Size is 120cm wide x 125cm high here, btw.

cheers,

Martin

(excuse the anachronistic background :-) ) )

[Tarbicus]

Hi Martin, nice one! shock: Martin's photos show that thing with the tunic hanging down at the sides over the belt very nicely, as seen in the Pompeii fresco.

[John M McDermott]

Yes, and very nice clavii, I might add.

I wonder, where did you get those?

[Martin Moser]

Hi John,

Yes, and very nice clavii, I might add. I wonder, where did you get those?

Actually I can't name the source exactly, I'm afraid :-( ( Our group had ordered a number of meters 1 or 2 years ago, but as I was not involved in the ordering process, I don't know where it comes from (though I'm pretty sure it was somewhere here in southern Germany). It is hand-wooven wool, with the clavii wooven into it. IIRC the fabric cost me something like 140.- euros.

cheers,

Martin

[Flavius Promotus]

I have seen Mr. Bronsart (the lanista from the Junkelmann gladiators) wear a very similar tunic, and I would say it is the same fabric.
Perhaps he knows more, but I don't have his address