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Revisiting Zama
#16
My apologies to Michael Park, why did I think your name was Paul ?
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#17
(07-08-2019, 12:34 PM)Michael Collins Wrote: My apologies to Michael Park, why did I think your name was Paul ?

Apologies unnecessary Michael, I'd already self edited. And I will get to your considered reply when work and time zones permit. Perhaps the "Paralus" confused matters or you are thinking of a friend of mine Paul McDonnell-Staff?

Between yourself and the ancient numbers man, I've a bit to get to....

(07-08-2019, 10:08 AM)Steven James Wrote: Michael Park wrote (too many Michaels)
Firstly, I do not assume the battle has been embellished or falsified. I believe this battle took place something in the manner in which the various sources render it.

You did say “That Roman history was so distorted within living memory of at least some of those there beggars belief.” My response was that any embellishment or falsification did not have to occur while those who participated were alive, but much later..

This really is annoying. The fact you do not use the forum reply and tools leads to distortion. As I wrote, Polybios knew and spoke with participants in the war - including Massinissa. But this is all for another time as I'm using a mobile phone in bed and that is bloody difficult - particularly on an old S5. It would make matters so much easier if you'd simply use the forum.

I'll get to your post(s) when not semi-recumbent and digitally challenged!
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#18
Paralus Wrote:This really is annoying. The fact you do not use the forum reply and tools leads to distortion.

I've still got challenges with even logging in to RAT. Still being challenged by the unauthorized code, which does not make things easy. Have tried Renatus' trick (thanks Renatus) but next attempt will try again to reply then add Word cut and paste. Last one failed something terrible. So have a little patience Michael, I have no idea why these problems have occurred and I have no idea as to why some past threads I have started have disappeared. No, I do not believe not using the forum tools leads to distortion. I've notice the rating game is on again. Hint, keep disagreeing with me and you will get a lot of them.

As for Polybius meeting Massinissa or Hannibal's veterans or even Laelius, I give them the same credence of Polybius' claim he found some bronze tablet at the Lacinian promontory detailing the number of troops Hannibal arrived in Italy with, and that is zero credence. But how many troops did this bronze tablet state? Was it less than 20,000 men as Polybius claims or his other claim of 26,000 men. It must have been a very confusing tablet.
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#19
(07-08-2019, 02:43 PM)Steven James Wrote: As for Polybius meeting Massinissa or Hannibal's veterans or even Laelius, I give them the same credence of Polybius' claim he found some bronze tablet at the Lacinian promontory detailing the number of troops Hannibal arrived in Italy with, and that is zero credence. But how many troops did this bronze tablet state? Was it less than 20,000 men as Polybius claims or his other claim of 26,000 men. It must have been a very confusing tablet.

A quickie while having lunch. I don't follow that. The passage:

Quote:Meanwhile Hannibal, upon going into winter quarters at New Carthage, first of all dismissed the Iberians to their various cities, with the view of their being prepared and vigorous for the next campaign. Secondly, he instructed his brother Hasdrubal in the management of his government in Iberia, and of the preparations to be made against Rome, in case he himself should be separated from him. Thirdly, he took precautions for the security of Libya, by selecting with prudent skill certain soldiers from the home army to come over to Iberia, and certain from the Iberian army to go to Libya; by which interchange he secured cordial feeling of confidence between the two armies. The Iberians sent to Libya were the Thersitae, the Mastiani, as well as the Oretes and Olcades, mustering together twelve hundred cavalry and thirteen thousand eight hundred and fifty foot. Besides these there were eight hundred and seventy slingers from the Balearic Isles, whose name, as that of the islands they inhabit, is derived from the word ballein, "to throw," because of their peculiar skill with the sling. Most of these troops he ordered to be stationed at Metagonia in Libya, and the rest in Carthage itself. And from the cities in the district of Metagonia he sent four thousand foot also into Carthage, to serve at once as hostages for the fidelity of their country, and as an additional guard for the city. With his brother Hasdrubal in Iberia he left fifty quinqueremes, two quadriremes, and five triremes, thirty-two of the quinqueremes being furnished with crews, and all five of the triremes; also cavalry consisting of four hundred and fifty Libyophenicians and Libyans, three hundred Lergetae, eighteen hundred Numidians of the Massolian, Massaesylian, Maccoeian, and Maurian tribes, who dwell by the ocean; with eleven thousand eight hundred and fifty Libyans, three hundred Ligures, five hundred of the Balearic Islanders, and twenty-one elephants.

The accuracy of this enumeration of Hannibal's Iberian establishment need excite no surprise, though it is such as a commander himself would have some difficulty in displaying; nor ought I to be condemned at once of imitating the specious falsehoods of historians: for the fact is that I myself found on Lacinium a bronze tablet, which Hannibal had caused to be inscribed with these particulars when he was in Italy; and holding it to be an entirely trustworthy authority for such facts, I did not hesitate to follow it.


What be the "rating game"?!
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#20
Paralus Wrote:
Steven James Wrote:As for Polybius meeting Massinissa or Hannibal's veterans or even Laelius, I give them the same credence of Polybius' claim he found some bronze tablet at the Lacinian promontory detailing the number of troops Hannibal arrived in Italy with, and that is zero credence. But how many troops did this bronze tablet state? Was it less than 20,000 men as Polybius claims or his other claim of 26,000 men. It must have been a very confusing tablet.

A quickie while having lunch. I don't follow that. The passage:

Quote:Meanwhile Hannibal, upon going into winter quarters at New Carthage, first of all dismissed the Iberians to their various cities, with the view of their being prepared and vigorous for the next campaign. Secondly, he instructed his brother Hasdrubal in the management of his government in Iberia, and of the preparations to be made against Rome, in case he himself should be separated from him. Thirdly, he took precautions for the security of Libya, by selecting with prudent skill certain soldiers from the home army to come over to Iberia, and certain from the Iberian army to go to Libya; by which interchange he secured cordial feeling of confidence between the two armies. The Iberians sent to Libya were the Thersitae, the Mastiani, as well as the Oretes and Olcades, mustering together twelve hundred cavalry and thirteen thousand eight hundred and fifty foot. Besides these there were eight hundred and seventy slingers from the Balearic Isles, whose name, as that of the islands they inhabit, is derived from the word ballein, "to throw," because of their peculiar skill with the sling. Most of these troops he ordered to be stationed at Metagonia in Libya, and the rest in Carthage itself. And from the cities in the district of Metagonia he sent four thousand foot also into Carthage, to serve at once as hostages for the fidelity of their country, and as an additional guard for the city. With his brother Hasdrubal in Iberia he left fifty quinqueremes, two quadriremes, and five triremes, thirty-two of the quinqueremes being furnished with crews, and all five of the triremes; also cavalry consisting of four hundred and fifty Libyophenicians and Libyans, three hundred Lergetae, eighteen hundred Numidians of the Massolian, Massaesylian, Maccoeian, and Maurian tribes, who dwell by the ocean; with eleven thousand eight hundred and fifty Libyans, three hundred Ligures, five hundred of the Balearic Islanders, and twenty-one elephants.

The accuracy of this enumeration of Hannibal's Iberian establishment need excite no surprise, though it is such as a commander himself would have some difficulty in displaying; nor ought I to be condemned at once of imitating the specious falsehoods of historians: for the fact is that I myself found on Lacinium a bronze tablet, which Hannibal had caused to be inscribed with these particulars when he was in Italy; and holding it to be an entirely trustworthy authority for such facts, I did not hesitate to follow it.


What be the "rating game"?!


Wow, not sure what that second passage was about. Something I did not write. And you tell me my system causes confusion. Hello. Also  I am not sure what passage you do not follow as you have provided two and one without a name. Second, the rating game is watch your number of positive reputations rapidly increase. It generally happens to posters who disagree with me. I'm looking forward to your answer to my questions on the "Livy and Polybius...biases thread.
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#21
(07-10-2019, 05:16 AM)Steven James Wrote: Wow, not sure what that second passage was about. Something I did not write. And you tell me my system causes confusion. Hello. Also  I am not sure what passage you do not follow as you have provided two and one without a name. Second, the rating game is watch your number of positive reputations rapidly increase. It generally happens to posters who disagree with me. I'm looking forward to your answer to my questions on the "Livy and Polybius...biases thread.

Second passage is Polybios, 3.33.5-18:
Quote:Meanwhile Hannibal, upon going into winter quarters at New Carthage, first of all dismissed the Iberians to their various cities, with the view of their being prepared and vigorous for the next campaign. Secondly, he instructed his brother Hasdrubal in the management of his government in Iberia, and of the preparations to be made against Rome, in case he himself should be separated from him. Thirdly, he took precautions for the security of Libya, by selecting with prudent skill certain soldiers from the home army to come over to Iberia, and certain from the Iberian army to go to Libya; by which interchange he secured cordial feeling of confidence between the two armies. The Iberians sent to Libya were the Thersitae, the Mastiani, as well as the Oretes and Olcades, mustering together twelve hundred cavalry and thirteen thousand eight hundred and fifty foot. Besides these there were eight hundred and seventy slingers from the Balearic Isles, whose name, as that of the islands they inhabit, is derived from the word ballein, "to throw," because of their peculiar skill with the sling. Most of these troops he ordered to be stationed at Metagonia in Libya, and the rest in Carthage itself. And from the cities in the district of Metagonia he sent four thousand foot also into Carthage, to serve at once as hostages for the fidelity of their country, and as an additional guard for the city. With his brother Hasdrubal in Iberia he left fifty quinqueremes, two quadriremes, and five triremes, thirty-two of the quinqueremes being furnished with crews, and all five of the triremes; also cavalry consisting of four hundred and fifty Libyophenicians and Libyans, three hundred Lergetae, eighteen hundred Numidians of the Massolian, Massaesylian, Maccoeian, and Maurian tribes, who dwell by the ocean; with eleven thousand eight hundred and fifty Libyans, three hundred Ligures, five hundred of the Balearic Islanders, and twenty-one elephants.

The accuracy of this enumeration of Hannibal's Iberian establishment need excite no surprise, though it is such as a commander himself would have some difficulty in displaying; nor ought I to be condemned at once of imitating the specious falsehoods of historians: for the fact is that I myself found on Lacinium a bronze tablet, which Hannibal had caused to be inscribed with these particulars when he was in Italy; and holding it to be an entirely trustworthy authority for such facts, I did not hesitate to follow it.

This is the passage which quotes the bronze tablet Hannibal had placed in the temple of Juno Lacinia (Livy, 28.46.16). What I don't follow is your quoted numbers from it unless Polybios references it elsewhere?

The "reputation". I'd wondered just what that was. I might get to the biases thread on the weekend. Time is not on my side at present.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#22
Hi Michael et al,

I thought I`d post again to show, in the form of a simple timeline, how I believe the "Zama" campaign of 202 BC developed.
Most of this timeline is based upon Appian and in parts it relates to Livy.

Here`s my speculation:

The Zama Campaign. A revised timeline of events:

April-September summer 202 - no campaigning
The campaigning season in Africa was October-April/May; a period with averages of 25C maximum and precipitation of 45-75mm per month in 5-8 days of rainfall per month.

Late-September/early October 202 Scipio learns of Tiberius Claudius Nero's arrival in Sicily.

Early-October 202 Scipio mobilises and marches along the Bagradas with the Roman army towards Naraggara to link up with Massinissa, prevent Hannibal receiving Numidian reinforcements and possibly defeat Vermina.

Early-October 202 Hannibal in response, marches to Zama to close the distance between himself and his possible reinforcement by Vermina.

Mid-October 202 Having reached Naraggara, Scipio counter marches, turns south to "Margaron".

(15th?) October 202 Laelius with the Roman and allied cavalry camps at Seba Biar. Close to a town called Cilla (Appian) - this is possibly El Sars/Le Sers.

(17th/18th?) October 202 Massinissa joins Roman army at Margaron (El Sars/Le Sers)

19th October 202 In a cavalry battle, Hannibal is defeated by Laelius at Kbor Klib. This is after Hannibal is surprised by Massinissa`s appearance (The battle of Zama). Was Hannibal expecting Vermina to arrive there instead?

For several days skirmishes between Carthaginian and Roman-allied Numidian light cavalries take place along the Siliana valley towards Hannibal's main camp at Zama.

Late-October (About 23rd-25th?) 202 Minucius Thermus captures a supply train - but I believe it more likely this was a reinforcement from Vermina that was ambushed somewhere to the west of "Margaron".

Late-October 202 As the strategic situation had changed, Hannibal requests and is allowed to negotiate with Scipio through Massinissa.
After several days a settlement is reached and there is an armistice between the two forces.

Late-October 202 The two armies return to their operational bases.
Laelius is immediately dispatched to Rome to announce a victory (this is Antias` "preliminary" battle found in Rome's official records - Livy).

Mid-November 202 Laelius is in Rome to make announcement that Hannibal is defeated.

17th December 202 Vermina`s force is defeated by Gaius Octavius (Livy)

Late-December 202 Carthaginian senate agree to Scipio`s terms.
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#23
Paralus Wrote:This is the passage which quotes the bronze tablet Hannibal had placed in the temple of Juno Lacinia (Livy, 28.46.16). What I don't follow is your quoted numbers from it unless Polybios references it elsewhere?

Polybius provides a little more information 3 56

 "when he thus boldly descended into the plain of the Po and the territory of the Insubres, 4his surviving forces numbered twelve thousand African and eight thousand Iberian foot, and not more than six thousand horse in all, as he himself states in the inscription on the column at Lacinium relating to the number of his forces."

And in complete contradiction to the above, Polybius writes

2 24 17 "while Hannibal invaded Italy with an army of less than twenty thousand men. On this matter I shall be able to give my readers more explicit information in the course of this work."

So which one is it Polybius?
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#24
(07-13-2019, 06:44 AM)Steven James Wrote: So which one is it Polybius?
 

Far be it for me to presume to answer for the Megalopolitan (!) but, again, we come back to sources and method. It is clear that Polybios had access to much in Rome (and presumably books he brought himself) for he'd the freedom to consult such. He, himself, explains that he'd such as opposed to other Achaians who'd been domiciled outside the capital (3.23.3ff). Now, of course, you're free to reject that testimony just as you do his association with Massinissa and the bronze tablet though it would be wise to note his claim of many visits to Locri and his services rendered (12.5ff) unless this, too, is fabrication. Where does one draw a line> Do we suppose that the histories he claims to have read (and may have used as sources) is also deserving of little, if any, credence?

As stated earlier, there are passages of the work which show signs of later editing and correction. Writing in the days before the technology available today necessitates the missing of such corrections given not all are going to be picked up and, for that matter, which version of the manuscript is being copied (the vagaries of transmission). Polybios is hardly alone with conflicting notices concerning numbers (and other details) - particularly in a work so long. The second passage (2.24) is written not to enumerate Hannibal's forces per se, but to showcase the sheer Roman power the Carthaginian had the hide to contemplate attacking. The source for this is not known to myself but the later passage (3.56.1-4) is replete with march detail and detailed numbers. This, he claims, comes from the bronze tablet which he cites as his source. A tablet Livy also notes and further notes its location - in the temple of Juno Lacinia (Livy, 28.46.16) - a detail not found at all in Polybios' manuscript. Livy, then, has this from somewhere else for, as I say, Polybios does not provide this (unless mentioned elsewhere that I've missed). I'd be strongly inclined to accept the passage based on that document as correct - particularly given the details Polybios narrates from it regarding the disposition of Carthaginian forces prior to Hannibal setting off. Details one finds difficult to accept were invented from whole cloth (and to what purpose?).

The "biases" thread awaits (as does Michael Collins) but time for the mundaneity of housework before a family get together. I'll be in a nursing home before I get anything finished...
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#25
Paralus Wrote:Where does one draw a line> Do we suppose that the histories he claims to have read (and may have used as sources) is also deserving of little, if any, credence?

The line is drawn when evidence is found to the contrary.


Quote:Paralus
As stated earlier, there are passages of the work which show signs of later editing and correction. I'd be strongly inclined to accept the passage based on that document as correct - particularly given the details Polybios narrates from it regarding the disposition of Carthaginian forces prior to Hannibal setting off. Details one finds difficult to accept were invented from whole cloth (and to what purpose?).

Those numbers have never been properly studied by academics. I have studied them and pasted my research on to respected colleagues for analyse.  It is a clear distinct mathematical pattern generating from one source, and that source I have proven to be Alimentus. All those numbers about Hannibal's army are fictitious. You ask to what purpose for inventing them? Try pure hate. Alimentus claims he was a prisoner of the Carthaginians. My conclusion is all those events describing Hannibal's cruelty are the product of Alimentus. Driven by hate as a slave made to work in the fields of Africa, Alimentus is the perfect candidate. So why not inflate Hannibal's army numbers and then have 76 percent killed off before arriving in Italy, so as to show the Romans that Hannibal cared for no one but his own glory.

Now Alimentus gives Hannibal's army at 80,000 infantry and 10,000 cavalry, for a total of 90,000 men. Polybius gives Hannibal's army at 90,000 infantry and 12,000 cavalry, for a total of 102,000 men. This is a difference of 12,000 men. What if Alimentus' figures have been rounded from 78,000 infantry and 12,000 cavalry? This type of rounding I have found to be common. The end total is the same.

Now if we subtracted Polybius' 12,000 cavalry from his figure of 90,000 infantry, we get 78,000 infantry. Now after dividing the 78,000 infantry by three, we get 26,000 infantry, which is the total number of men Polybius claims Hannibal arrived in Italy with (20,000 infantry and 6,000 cavalry).

These numbers are not coincidence. I have a lot more examples of them and can show how every figure mentioned by Polybius about those troops Hannibal sent to Africa and those that remained in Iberia had been arrived at. They surface throughout the entire Second Punic War with regular monotony. 

I've got Alimentus' with the smoking gun and in the process reveal Polybius to be lying about the Lacinia bronze tablet. However, in Polybius' defence, Polybius knew Alimentus was lying so did a one upmanship on Alimentus.
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#26
So, a little more is needed I think, to pad out the bare bones of my speculative outline of the campaign...

I believe that the deciding factors of the campaign of 202 were the Numidians and each army's potential cavalry strength on the battlefield.
These are surely the reasons why Scipio marched west along the Bagradas early in the month of October of 202; he needed to isolate Hannibal from his Numidian ally, Vermina and unite with his own ally Massinissa. He then needed to defeat both Vermina and Hannibal in detail.
In this way, Scipio using his cavalry to a definite advantage would avoid a large-scale battle in which Hannibal would have an advantage in infantry. Scipio then (or maybe it was Laelius?) decided to take up a central position; if there was anything great, or masterly in the generalship of the Zama campaign it had to be this strategic manoeuvre by Roman forces.

Some days before the battle at Zama, having counter marched to Margaron or Partha (Polybius or Appian respectively) and camping some distance from Hannibal at Zama, Scipio was reinforced by Massinissa. Hannibal was unaware of this development and so he was ambushed as he followed his enemy`s retrograde movements.
It was very much as Cassius Dio (Book 17. IX, 14) described it;

"When it seemed best to Scipio not to delay any further but to involve Hannibal in conflict whether he wished it or not, he set out for Utica, that by creating an impression of fear and flight he might gain a favorable opportunity for attack; and this was what took place. Hannibal, thinking that he was in flight and being correspondingly encouraged, pursued him with cavalry only. Contrary to his expectations Scipio resisted, engaged in battle and came out victorious."

Appian places this action at the start of the campaign but he only covers it briefly, without mention of a surprise or of a reversal of fortunes. However, he does identify the location of the battle:

"About this time there was a cavalry engagement between the forces of Hannibal and those of Scipio near Zama, in which the latter had the advantage." (The Punic Wars 8.36).

The sudden appearance of Massinissa at Zama is perhaps the one grain of truth that was left behind after Polybius has revised the battle. Perhaps it was Polybius or an earlier author who originally added Herodotus` three spies story in order to make the deception appear deliberately controlled by Scipio. By contrast, at the meeting between the two great captains before Zama, Hannibal is made to appear weak as he tries to negotiate, but Scipio with Fortune on his side, is shown to be strong, righteous and pious and because of this, Scipio determined what was to follow.
But this is a story completely turned on its head by Appian, who tells us of negotiations and a settlement that took place AFTER the battle near Zama!

But the real battle of Zama had to be omitted lest it conflict with the three spies fiction and everything else about Zama. Once the three spies lie was introduced into the narrative, other elements in the histories that existed before Polybius had to be removed too and so along with the real battle of Zama, the independent actions by Scipio`s subordinates were also erased.

In truth, these actions were probably more important and decisive than the real battle of Zama, but taking place AFTER Zama, his subordinates could not be allowed to reduce the importance of Scipio`s own victory and challenge Scipio`s qualification for a Triumph.
Only days after Zama there came the capture of "a supply train" by Quintus Minucius Thermus (Appian The Punic Wars 8.36). This is interesting, but I believe that the overall strategic situation did not allow for Hannibal's lines of communication to be threatened and for a possible ambush of his supply train. I suspect that the 8,000 Carthaginians killed or captured were in fact, a reinforcement from Vermina.
Secondly, in December 202, Gaius Octavius finally defeated Vermina (Livy. 30.36) and Livy, who most likely had it from Valerius Antias, listed Vermina`s force as being 16,200.
In all this, in Polybius` history, the roles of Scipio`s Numidian auxiliaries and Massinissa were downplayed or suppressed. But the decisive battles of 202 were either cavalry actions, or were at least, actions involving large bodies of Numidian cavalry.

Qualification for a Triumph was dependent upon there being 5,000 enemy killed in battle, but it is quite unlikely that Hannibal had that many cavalry in total and if Appian is to be believed, he would have still had a cavalry force to be able to skirmish against the Romans for days after the battle at Zama.
In order to gain victory and a Triumph, something more substantial was required and so I would suggest that a fabricated version of battle of Zama existed before Polybius. I think that it survives in Appian where there is a contradiction between the battle dispositions that are obviously taken from Polybius and another section that follows in which Appian describes the infantry actions involving Scipio`s subordinates:

"The Roman right wing, where Laelius commanded, put the opposing Numidians to flight, and Massinissa struck down their prince, Massathes, with a dart, but Hannibal quickly came to their rescue and restored the line of battle. On the left wing, where Octavius commanded and where the hostile Celts and Ligurians were stationed, a doubtful battle was going on. Scipio sent the tribune Thermus [Quintus Minucius Thermus.] thither with a reinforcement of picked men, but Hannibal, after rallying his left wing, flew to the assistance of the Ligurians and Celts, bringing up at the same time his second line of Carthaginians and Africans. Scipio, perceiving this, brought his second line in opposition." (The Punic Wars 9.44).

How official this account appears to be at source to have emphasis upon specific mentions of Roman officers and their actions; it is quite possible that it originates from Scipio himself.

Roman histories before Polybius were probably informed by Scipio`s own account, and consisted of the actual battle followed by an official fabricated version of the battle, but Polybius elaborated further on the fabrication and edited the real battle out of the story altogether. Well, that is until Appian puts the pieces back together again in the middle of the C2nd AD.
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#27
Perhaps when we all Naruto rush Area 51 we shall find Scipio and Hannibal and all their host.
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#28
(07-19-2019, 12:26 PM)Michael J. Taylor Wrote: Perhaps when we all Naruto rush Area 51 we shall find Scipio and Hannibal and all their host.

Hold on Michael, I`m searching my digital copy of Appian`s Punic War for "Naruto".....
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#29
Michael Collins
Quote:Hold on Michael, I`m searching my digital copy of Appian`s Punic War for "Naruto".....


Naruto is a Japanese manga series. Me thinks he is being insulting.
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#30
(07-19-2019, 01:45 PM)Steven James Wrote: Michael Collins
Quote:Hold on Michael, I`m searching my digital copy of Appian`s Punic War for "Naruto".....


Naruto is a Japanese manga series. Me thinks he is being insulting.

OK... I prefer less cryptic insults for sure.
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