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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
The Wikipedia article has been changed from the 'Battle of Watling Street' to 'Defeat of Boudica'.
Neil Ritchie
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saw that, hence the conversation we've been having this week. Personally I don't object but they could at least alter the text and image to match, then they have to do the same to the Battle of Medway......... etc....etc... I suspect the Tring Paradistas and Ren have had a hand in it or at least someone stalking this thread.... it'll soon revert to the Battle of Church Stowe.. Tongue
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(11-22-2018, 01:57 PM)John1 Wrote: Tring Paradistas

Is that one of those clubs in Ibiza that you favour, John? [Image: tongue.png]
Nathan Ross
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I rarely stray far from Sintillate on Ibiza, but if I EVER find myself looking for a big night out in Dunstable I'll look out for you and the Paradista crew.... try swapping Tring Paradista in on the chorus here, spotted your cameo at 1:12.... and don't worry the drinks are still free......  www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYX0sjP6Za8
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(11-22-2018, 01:57 PM)John1 Wrote: I suspect the Tring Paradistas and Ren have had a hand in it or at least someone stalking this thread.... it'll soon revert to the Battle of Church Stowe.. Tongue

Not me, guv. According to this site ( http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...ing_Street ), the battle is 'sometimes called the Battle of Paulerspury' (by whom, I wonder?). It's not yet Church Stowe but it's creeping up on you.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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So I sheltered from howling storms in a local community centre tonight and imagine my surprise when just by chance I had happened upon a lecture entitled "The Boudican campaign of AD 60/61: some new ideas". Turns out it was William Foot (Defence of Britain Pill Box man in chief ) who has written a new book on the Boudiccan campaign and has an entirely new site for us to mess with...... Quick book plug, he writes under the pen name John Aubin and you can add this to your Christmas list.....  www.amazon.co.uk/Face-Boudica-Rebellion-Against-Rome/dp/0993342574/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

So quick synopsis (to wind Nathan/Andrew up mainly)

Cavalry Dash... tick.... Gold Star
Main Legion forces held on Watling Street around the head of the Nene... tick.... Gold Star
Utter contempt for the Paradistas... tick.. Gold Star
Iceni working as relatively small raiding bands... tick... Gold Star

So all going fine until he brings up Grahame Appleby and Arbury Banks... and he is led astray by Grahame as so many of us before.....

He swerves off down the Icknield Way, dismisses Arbury Banks, but thanks anyway Grahame!! .

Makes the point about the Wash creating a narrow chalk ridge route out to the south of Iceni land... tick.. Gold Star

Paulinus has swerved 'cos he's going to hit Bou and Co in their homelands, so he is looking for a fight and taking it to them... hence they were able to bring their fams wiv 'em innit.

Romans smart, not only choose their ground but prepare the positions... tick Gold Star... but way out of the hood in Cambs by now.

His choice of battlefield is the the north facing valley at Heydon..... no flank defences east, west or south and no reason for the Icii's to walk into the ravine of doom, lots of potential camps and earthworks in the vicinity but nowt identified on the ridge. Chalk ridge would send Steve Kaye over the edge in terms of water supply, however OS does show a honking great moat jobbie on top of the ridge so maybe there is a possible source..

   

So new site, I played nice, I have to since the restraining order. But what do you guys think?

438703
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(11-28-2018, 09:46 PM)John1 Wrote: But what do you guys think?

I think he should stick to pill-boxes.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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(11-28-2018, 09:46 PM)John1 Wrote: to wind Nathan/Andrew up

Well, consider me wound! But who's Andrew?


(11-28-2018, 09:46 PM)John1 Wrote: Paradistas

You keep mentioning this - could you remind everyone what on earth you mean by it?


(11-28-2018, 09:46 PM)John1 Wrote: Iceni working as relatively small raiding bands...

'Small raiding bands' captured and sacked Colchester, destroyed the 9th Legion, drove Paulinus out of London and burned the place, and then somehow united into one force only at the moment he confronts them? You seem to be suggesting you support this idea - why?


(11-28-2018, 09:46 PM)John1 Wrote: Paulinus has swerved... hit Bou and Co in their homelands, so he is looking for a fight... bring their fams

I don't understand this either! Could you expand it a bit? Why would the Iceni bring their families if (as I think the writer is proposing) they were preparing to defend their homeland?


(11-28-2018, 09:46 PM)John1 Wrote: the north facing valley at Heydon.....

It's a valley, but like you I'm unsure why anyone would chose it as the battle site. There doesn't seem to be any reason for a large army to enter it from the north-east - the only through-route looks to be the 'Harcamlow Way', running NW-SE at that point.

It's not on the way to anywhere, and it would be easy enough to bypass (which would be pretty embarrassing for Paulinus if for some unknown reason he'd 'dug in' there) - why would anyone be in that area anyway?
Nathan Ross
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Well, consider me wound! = FANTASTIC
Paradista = an individual unreasonably certain the Iceni force was bimbling around the country in a single huge unit, as in "parade"
Small raiding bands = we have been over this, it wasn't a huge parade, maybe a proto parade hit Colchester and then dispersed into smaller group to loot weaker sites without the logistic nightmare of so many folk.
Bring their fams = his thesis is Paulinus went into Iceni lands to take the fight to them, this left the Iceni closer to home and could therefore bring the kids.
valley = we are aligned
why would anyone be in that area anyway? = apparently there is a good pub.... tick Gold Star
Andrew = Nathan, you are a great Andrew to my George......

not sure about the dodgy artex exterior but the menu looks good, http://king-william-iv.co.uk/
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(11-28-2018, 11:09 PM)John1 Wrote: unreasonably certain the Iceni force was bimbling around the country in a single huge unit, as in "parade"

You appear to have changed your definition! I had assumed you were objecting to the idea that the rebels moved along Roman roads for long distances in a sort of column. Now you seem to be objecting to the idea that they had any nucleus or internal cohesion at all...!


(11-28-2018, 11:09 PM)John1 Wrote: it wasn't a huge parade, maybe a proto parade hit Colchester and then dispersed into smaller group to loot weaker sites

Weaker sites like... London?

A 'smaller group' would not have defeated the ninth, Paulinus would not have evacuated London in the face of 'raiding parties', and if the Britons split up like that the Romans would have defeated them piecemeal very rapidly.



(11-28-2018, 11:09 PM)John1 Wrote: Paulinus went into Iceni lands to take the fight to them, this left the Iceni closer to home and could therefore bring the kids.

So they decided to defend their homes by leaving their homes, together with their families, and all marching off in a big mass to exactly where the Romans were waiting for them in a prepared position? As you are so critical of the idea of the Britons moving anywhere in a cohesive group, I cannot imagine how this would work, even if Boudica and co were stupid enough to attempt it!
Nathan Ross
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sorry...... (leaves sniggering and muttering Tring Paradista under his breath)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9udxbvHiqGw
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"Chalk ridge would send Steve Kaye over the edge in terms of water supply"

Damn right!

Disclaimer - I haven't read the book, neither will I.

Nearest water supply (stream) sufficient to support 10k soldiers and 5k slaves+civilians plus beasts is c.4 km to the north - the direction the rebels are supposed to attack the Roman prepared positions. Other water supplies are over 8 km to the east and south.

There are springs and wells on the ridge but they would be drained within hours but the author has the army on the ridge for days preparing the ground and waiting for the rebels to gather and attack where Suetonius has decided it is where he wants them to.

Tactically Heydon is a non-starter and strategically it's bonkers.

Then again, it is a work of fiction; if it gave the author pleasure in the writing and readers likewise in the reading, then that is acceptable.

John, occasionally I do like rising to the bait - good effort - Tick.
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"if it gave the author pleasure in the writing and readers likewise in the reading, then that is acceptable." a great rule for this thread and the whole pass time. Learning lots, finding lots but probably nothing whatsoever to do with Bou.
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John,
Your hostility to the 'parade' theory is well-known but I would like to ask how you account for the presence of the wives and wagons at the battle. You may have dealt with this earlier in the wilds of this thread, in which case I apologise for raising the matter again. However, although there may be some supplementaries, the basic questions are: how did they get there, why did they go there and how did they know where to go?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
No problem. I do question both the model of mass movement and the timeline that is applied to the campaign by others. My technique for unpicking this campaign is to reverse engineer from an assumption the Church Stowe was the location of the "Battle that may or may not have been fought on or near Watling Street but definitely saw the defeat of the Boudiccan Rebellion". I may well be wrong about the location but this method forces me to look for compelling answers to questions such as the one you pose and consequently challenge my own assumptions and those of others.

If the site is Church Stowe then there are two very handy routes into Iceni territory the Nene Valley and the Ouse Valley, or up the Ouse then a quick cut north into the Nene Valley at Irchester. So a large and rapid advance of a mass of Iceni civvies could happen without the need to trapece around in a parade over the course of weeks.

If the Iceni were massing lots of fighters and their families they would need a focal base in this instance I am looking at Hunsbury Hill and it's fort as a nucleus. This is about 6 miles from the CS Battlefield and in view of a couple of the ridgetop features we have at Church Stowe. In addition there is a suggestion that the "Great Way" seemingly a pre-Roman route (Dave Hayward CLASP) runs in part from Castle Dykes to Hunsbury Hill. The route is easy and flat over the plain of the Nene valley where the river bifurcates. I don't see how the campaign would happen without distinct mustering points for both sides, give them some credit and each candidate battlefield advocate should surely have this on the required "to define" list.

My model involves a hiatus of days in the campaign manoeuvering where the Romans are digging in on the CS ridge west of Watling Street and the initial forces of the Iceni set up at a safe distance to the East at Hunsbury where word goes out to mass as large a force as possible to deal with and witness the battle. Hunsbury was a pre-battle party venue, Glastonbury with human sacrifices. The Romans may have held CS as a strategic base prior to the campaign, a foreshadowing of the neighbouring Weedon Bec depot of the Napoleonic Wars.

The area around CS is remarkably peppered with Hill Forts, it is at the point/area where a number of presumed tribal territories meet. It is smack bang in the centre of the country and at the point where the Nene, Ouse, Thames (Cherwell) and Avon rise on Arbury Hill 2km to the west of CS, in addition it is very close to the Watford Gap, the traditional North/South division where the Nene catchment meets the Trent catchment. I wouldn't be surprised if that landscape wasn't a known meeting point for many in the country, and navigation from the Iceni territory is easy, it is simple to describe a route that says "follow the Nene west until you meet us, the Romans are boxed in further upstream".

Post rout, the Iceni escape route is down the Nene into the Fens, which might explain the finds at Stonea Camp and what is starting to appear as a massive roman camp at Wadenhoe bottling up the Nene route.

My hostility, and scorn, and sarcasm about the parade is only a fun (for me) way to jolt or test the assumption that the timeline and logistics of the campaign are governed by a single mass moving in unison. Appleby, Marix-Evans and others under pin their campaign models on this mode of operation, a mode which I personally consider impractical at best but really strategic and logistical madness. Give me fast moving war bands out looting, self sustaining and highly motivated - it's how asymmetrical warfare has worked forever.

CS is providing a battle site that is as good a match as any match, a reasoned base for the Romans, a reasoned base for the Iceni, a reasoned route for the combatants pre and post battle, I have yet to see this from other candidates. But far more interestingly this process has thrown up a number of new sites at Church Stowe, the potential fort at Wadenhoe and the Fort & Villa at Windridge (St Alban). That's a good a set of practical results from my point of view, even if Boudicca was busy having a Mardi Gras somewhere down in the Home Counties and never anywhere near Church Stowe..... I'm with Steve, I enjoy speculating and writing this stuff if you don't want to read it or engage with it that's entirely your choice........

But if you like a parade, enjoy this,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO4CXzrRRVA

This map of Iron Age hoards point out the significance of the Upper Nene Valley. Iceni territory is presumed to include all the Fens/undrained Wash, to about Longthorpe. In fact the Nene is seen as a significant territorial boundary and even almost gets to the Dobbuni just west of CS.

   
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