Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
numeri / arithmoi
#1
I have created this thread specifically for the study of the numeri / arithmoi. The first question one can ask = “Is a numerus and an arithmos consubstantial?”

*
AE 1991, 1551. AE 2006, 1553. IK 56, 0064; Taf. 22. S. Pilhofer, Romanisierung in Kilikien? (München 2006) 119-122, Q 11. M.P. Speidel, Die Denkmäler der Kaiserreiter. Equites singulares Augusti (Köln - Bonn 1994) 371, Nr. 688a; Foto.  197 AD – 218 AD :


M(emoriae) c(ausa) C(aium) Iul(ium) Proculum / eq(uitem) sing(ularem) Impp(eratorum) nn(ostrorum) nati/one Pannonium ann(orum) / XXXV stip(endiorum) XVI <C>(aius) Iul(ius) / Finitus dec(urio) ex n(umero) eq(uitum) / sing(ularium) Imp(eratorum) nn(ostrorum) heres eius / curavit // μ(νήμης) χ(άριν) Γ(άιον) Ἰούλιον Πρόκλον ἱππ[έ]/α σινγουλάριν τῶν κυρίων / αὐτοκρατόρων, γένει Παν/νόνιον ἐτῶν λεʹ στρατευσά/μενον ἔτεσιν ιϝʹ Γάιος Ἰούλιος / Φινῖτος δεκάδαρχος ἐκ τοῦ ἀρι/θμου τῶν σινγουλαρίων / [ἱ]ππέων τῶν κυρίων ἡμῶν / αὐτοκρατόρω κληρονόμος / αὐτοῦ ἀνέστησεν

http://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/ins...&anzahl=20
 *

This bilingual inscription seems to acknowledge the consubstantiality of numerus and arithmos.
Reply
#2
(02-17-2018, 04:37 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: The first question one can ask = “Is a numerus and an arithmos consubstantial?”

I would say that's absolutely undoubtable. One word is latin, the other greek; they refer to the same thing. Is there anything at all to suggest they were not the same?
Nathan Ross
Reply
#3
Steven James:

So how is it clear that an arithmoi is equivalent to a numerus? I want proof, rather than just follow the latest group think. What if an arithmoi was equivalent to two numerii?


https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/showth...#pid345057
*

This is why additional research on this topic is needed, Nathan Ross (Praefectusclassis). Let’s try to get to the heart of the matter. Leave no stone unturned. A continual search for more data on the Roman Army.
Reply
#4
(02-18-2018, 03:45 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: So how is it clear that an arithmoi is equivalent to a numerus?... This is why additional research on this topic is needed

Wasn't my reply to Steven's question (here) sufficient?

I agree that the numerus/arithmos is an interesting and important factor in understanding the late Roman army - although also a very inexact term, it seems! - but I really don't see any reason to think that the Greek and Latin words were referring to different sorts or sizes of unit.

Unless, as I say, there is some evidence to suggest otherwise - is there?
Nathan Ross
Reply
#5
There are some epitaphs in the east of the empire in the 4th century. These are sometimes written in Latin and Greek. Furthermore - and this is much more important - there are the countless short novellae and codices of Justinian. In some Greek texts - in the middle of the text, so to speak - Justinan (or his staff) suddenly use the Latin equivalent.
In addition, it is simply a question of translation. Numerus means "number" - while in Greek Arithmos also means "number" (even today).
Reply
#6
A new reference to a "numerus":


John Chrysostom - Homily 22 on the Acts of the Apostles

"The reason why the writer describes the man so fully, is, that none may say that the Scripture history relates falsehoods: Cornelius, he says, a centurion of the band called the Italian band. Acts 10:1 A band, σπεἵρα, is what we now call a numerous. A devout man, he says, and one that feared God with all his house Acts 10:2: that you may not imagine that it is because of his high station that these things are done.— "

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210122.htm

*

Greek Text:

https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_B9gQz5...#page/n185

*

Written circa 400 AD, how are we supposed to interpret this statement?
Reply
#7
(09-19-2018, 05:25 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: Written circa 400 AD, how are we supposed to interpret this statement?

The text of Acts 10 that you linked has the answer:

Greek: σπείρης τῆς καλουμένης Ἰταλικῆς (a speira known as Italikos)

Latin: cohortis quæ dicitur Italica

The unit was most likely Cohors II Italica.

By Chrysostom's day the words cohort and speira were apparently both obsolete, and all military units were called numeri / arithmoi.
Nathan Ross
Reply
#8
I am looking into the possibility that inscriptions about numeri can refer to either the “ethnic” sense or the “tactical” sense.


publication: CIL 03, 11135 = D 04311 = CCID 00232 = MaCarnuntum 00086 = CSIR-Oe-Carn-S-01, 00703 = Legio-II-Parth 00034 = AEA 1985/92, +00137 = AEA 2008, +00019 = AEA 2011/12, +00022 = AE 1982, 00786 = AE 1983, 00767
dating: 235 to 238 EDCS-ID: EDCS-29100231
province: Pannonia superior place: Bad Deutsch-Altenburg / Carnuntum
[I(ovi) O(ptimo)] M(aximo) / Dolich(eno) / pro sal(ute) / [[[Imp(eratoris) Caes(aris)] C(ai)]] / [[[Iul(i) Veri M]ax]]/[[[imini P(ii)] F(elicis)]] / [[[Invic(ti) Au]g(usti)]] / [6] / [3 Ulpi]us / Amandianus / mil(es) leg(ionis) / XIIII G(eminae) / librari[u]s / numeri s(uprascripti) / cus(tos) arm(orum) / signif[er] / optio / o[cta]v[i] / pr(incipis) pr(ioris) / candidatus / Numini / cum U[l]pio / Amando / [ve]t(erano) le[g(ionis)] s(upra) s(criptae) / p(osuit)


This inscription about a numerus of Legio XIIII Geminae refers in this case I think to the “tactical” sense.


It seems perhaps most numerus inscriptions of the Later Roman Army refer to the “ethnic” sense (whatever that could mean).


One major problem is that most inscriptions are abbreviated in some way, preventing us from full understanding.
Reply
#9
(09-21-2018, 04:18 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: mil(es) leg(ionis) / XIIII G(eminae) / librari[u]s / numeri s(uprascripti)

I believe all that's saying is 'librarius of the above unit' (i.e. of Legio XIIII Gemina). The word 'numerus' is used here in an entirely generic sense.

There's a similar inscription from Rome (CIL 06, 32803): Frontinius Castus librar(ius) n(umeri) s(upra) s(cripti). In this case the name of the unit is missing. The formula is presumably to avoid having to write the name out again.


(09-21-2018, 04:18 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: most numerus inscriptions of the Later Roman Army refer to the “ethnic” sense (whatever that could mean).

As far as I know, it was more usual for 'numerus' to refer to (probably irregular) 'ethnic' units in the 1st-3rd century - like the Numerus Hnaudifridi that we find at Housesteads, or the Numerus Brittonum Murrensium from Ohringen.

The word seems to be used more commonly to refer to military units of all sorts in later centuries, becoming ubiquitous by the 4th century. Although, as we see from the examples above, it was already used in this way in the earlier 3rd century.
Nathan Ross
Reply
#10
As there's some connection to this topic, I thought I'd put this here...

Could anyone identify and transliterate the the Greek words in the lefthand text of Sozomen below, that the Latin text translates as Legionibus militum Romanorum?

In the righthand column, the Latin legionibus is apparently a translation of arithmos or arithmoi, but I cannot pick out what the word in the other section might be!

   

The text relates to a plan to send 'Roman legions' (or whatever) into Illyricum c.407 - I'm wondering whether, if these troops were sent at all, they might indeed be the 'five tagmata' that Zosimus mentions as returning to Italy and being defeated by the Goths. In the second column, Stilicho is given four 'arithmoi' (numeri / legions?) to take to the east with him.
Nathan Ross
Reply
#11
Hello Nathan.
rapidly or swiftly he συνδραμεισθαι (approved or agreed) to join him with "Roman stratiotai" (soldiers) - which is quite neutral, but suggesting some mobile (stronger) forces. Sozomenos is otherwise also using terms like "garrison" or "footsoliders" (as procopius did) when speaking about light or static troops. But even this is debatable, because mobile forces have also occupied forts or cities.
However, here in this case there is no clue or note to "legions" - either in the sentences before or after.
In the Latin translation, one probably assumes that "Roman troops" are fundamentally "legions".

The right column just speaks about "four numeri of stratiotai". Four Detachements or regiments of soldiers in a broader sense. But as you say, the term Legio (λεγεωνος) is not mentioned here as well. A better latin translation would be quatuor numeri militibus.
Reply
#12
(10-12-2018, 10:31 PM)Marcel Frederik Schwarze Wrote: "Roman stratiotai" (soldiers)... "four numeri of stratiotai".

Thanks Marcel! I was wondering if there was some word like tagmata or katalogoi in there - it's Sozomen who tells us about the six arithmoi arriving at Ravenna, of course, so I thought he might use some alternative term here - but it seems not.
Nathan Ross
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Late Roman Army Ranks - Numeri/Limitanei jmsilvacross 14 1,745 11-17-2021, 01:42 PM
Last Post: Steven James
  Six Numeri for Honorius Nathan Ross 23 5,899 06-26-2018, 01:18 AM
Last Post: Justin I
  Numeri Exploratorum Nathan Ross 0 1,311 04-07-2005, 09:07 PM
Last Post: Nathan Ross

Forum Jump: