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Saint Patrick & Names along the Antonine wall
#46
(08-25-2018, 11:19 PM)John1 Wrote: I thought he was from Bannaventa in Northamptonshire.......

Of all the various suggested options I'd say Tafarn-y-Banwen in south Wales sounds like the best fit for Bannauem Taburniae. Close to Roman roads, forts and settlements (and Irish settlements too), and the coastal town of Neath (Nidum) could just be 'Nemthur'....!


(08-15-2018, 10:53 AM)D B Campbell Wrote: ...derived from an original Latin medio, we should surely ask "middle of what?"...

Might there be a possibility that 'Medio' was the name of the fort in the middle of the wall?

If we do split Medio from Nemeton in the Ravenna List, we get five names to the east, then 'Medio', then five names to the west. That would make 'Medio' something like Westerwood (geographically the centre). 'Nemeton' would be next named fort to the west of that. Apparently the list doesn't name all the forts though, so it's hard to be sure which one that might be...
Nathan Ross
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#47
(08-26-2018, 10:21 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(08-25-2018, 11:19 PM)John1 Wrote: I thought he was from Bannaventa in Northamptonshire.......

Of all the various suggested options I'd say Tafarn-y-Banwen in south Wales sounds like the best fit for Bannauem Taburniae. Close to Roman roads, forts and settlements (and Irish settlements too), and the coastal town of Neath (Nidum) could just be 'Nemthus'....!


(08-15-2018, 10:53 AM)D B Campbell Wrote: ...derived from an original Latin medio, we should surely ask "middle of what?"...

Might there be a possibility that 'Medio' was the name of the fort in the middle of the wall?

If we do split Medio from Nemeton in the Ravenna List, we get five names to the east, then 'Medio', then five names to the west. That would make 'Medio' something like Westerwood (geographically the centre). 'Nemeton' would be next named fort to the west of that. Apparently the list doesn't name all the forts though, so it's hard to be sure which one that might be...

When you have 500 Roman names to chose from ... and if you allow yourself to butcher the words, and if you don't require any supporting evidence, and if you ignore the historical evidence ... you will always find a chance location for banavem taburniae almost. But the historical evidence, confirmed by adjoining place name clearly locates St.Patrick's birth place at Old Kilpatrick.

As for Medio - Balmuildy happens to be the middle of the western section of Antonine wall - and except for a small extension on the eastern end, it is only in this section that has distance slabs. This may indicate that this section was built at a different time and Balmuildy was literally the "middle of the (new) wall". It also means that those same a "pace" was two paces got it wrong.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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#48
(08-25-2018, 11:19 PM)John1 Wrote: I thought he was from Bannaventa in Northamptonshire.......

We are told that his Grandfather's home (not his place of birth) was Bannavem Taburniae. He was abducted by pirates here.

Bannavanta has no connection with Patrick other than a name likeness and is not a viable option as it's hard to find anywhere further from the sea. It is clearly just a coincidence that the names are not entirely dissimilar
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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#49
(08-26-2018, 10:35 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote:
(08-15-2018, 10:53 AM)D B Campbell Wrote: ...derived from an original Latin medio, we should surely ask "middle of what?"...
Balmuildy happens to be the middle of the western section of Antonine wall - and except for a small extension on the eastern end, it is only in this section that has distance slabs. This may indicate that this section was built at a different time and Balmuildy was literally the "middle of the (new) wall". It also means that those same a "pace" was two paces got it wrong.

My goodness -- I had no idea this thread was still running. My email stopped alerting me last week.

In case the original poster thinks we are being unreasonable, I thought it might be illuminating to refer to the "official" interpretation of these ancient names: http://www.antoninewall.co.uk/history_an...part2.html (see right-hand sidebar).

I wonder -- if we accept that Saint Patrick was born near Alcluith (Dumbarton Rock), as seems to have been believed (on no clear authority) in the Middle Ages, I wonder where his grandfather lived? And, given that in the fifth century any settlements in the Central Lowlands of Scotland must have been rather ephemeral, perhaps Alcluith was the only sensible landmark in the area, so that, if Patrick was born somewhere along the line of the Antonine Wall, they would have said that it was "near Dumbarton".

P.S. If you want an ancient placename scholar, you could try Andrew Breeze.

And what is "Turner 1890" that keeps getting cited?
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#50
(08-26-2018, 10:35 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Balmuildy happens to be the middle of the western section of Antonine wall

Why would the Ravenna Cosmography only list the forts at the western end of the wall? Especially when the only identifiable one is at the extreme eastern end.
Nathan Ross
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#51
For information, I've come across more evidence and have updated the article: http://roman-britain.co.uk/nemthur.htm

The main changes are these:
1. Far from Patrick use of Latin terms showing that Patrick was born in Roman Britain, he himself says that Latin is a "foreign language" and those that critique it call it "barbarous". So, the linguistic evidence shows Patrick WAS NOT born in Latin speaking Roman Britain.
2. The location where Patrick was born (Nemthur) is recorded in the black book of Carmarthen as the fortress of "Neutur" which is clearly a close match to "Notyr" which is contained in the older forms of the local place name "Dalnotter".

I've also had a chance to check the other "contender" sites and they are laughable:

Ravenglass is based only on the linguistic similarity between "Banavem Taberniae" and "Glannibanta" (given in their original forms), the identification of Banwen rests solely on a man who says "when I was eight my grandfather said Patrick was born in this field".
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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#52
(09-14-2018, 02:47 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: he himself says that Latin is a "foreign language" and those that critique it call it "barbarous". So, the linguistic evidence shows Patrick WAS NOT born in Latin speaking Roman Britain.

I don't think this is what he means.

Confession, 9: "This is why I have long thought to write, but up to now I have hesitated, because I feared what people would say. This is because I did not learn as others did, who drank in equally well both the law and the sacred writings, and never had to change their way of speaking since childhood, but always grew better and better at it. For me, however, my speech and words have been translated into a foreign language, as it can be easily seen from my writings the standard of the instruction and learning I have had..."

Confession, 10:... "Now, in my old age, I want to do what I was unable to do in my youth. My sins then prevented me from really taking in what I read... I was taken prisoner as a youth, particularly young in the matter of being able to speak, and before I knew what I should seek and what I should avoid. That is why, today, I blush and am afraid to expose my lack of experience, because I can’t express myself with the brief words I would like in my heart and soul."

Patrick is saying (I think) that he is unable to express himself in Latin as well as he would like because at an early age he was taken prisoner and made to speak another language - meaning Irish.

He is quite clear that prior to his captivity he read and listened to Christian teachings, i.e. in Latin. His father and grandfather also had Latin names, and he was captured in a place with a Latin name too.


All of Patrick's writings, together with later biographies, can be found in translation here (including the letter to 'the soldiers of Coroticus' mentioned in this thread above: "I live as an alien among non-Roman peoples, an exile on account of the love of God"...)


(09-14-2018, 02:47 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: The location where Patrick was born (Nemthur) is recorded in the black book of Carmarthen as the fortress of "Neutur"

It looks like this is the interpretation by William Forbes Skene in 1868: "Neutur, or Nevtur — is probably the same place mentioned by Fiech in his Life of St. Patrick, written in the eighth century, as Nemhtur or Nevtur. It is identified by his scholiast with Alclyde or Dumbarton."

'Probably' suggests that the original text itself does not make this connection, I think, and we are back to this anonymous 'scholiast' again.

What does the passage from 'The Black Book of Carmarthen' actually say?*


*Edit - it's online here.

The passage that Skene mentions (Dialogue of Myrddin and Taleisin line 1, stanza 3) goes as follows: Rac deuur ineutur ytirran. Rac errith. a gurrith y ar welugan.

According to the translation (which is apparently by Skene, confusingly!) this means "Before two men in battles they gather. Before Erith and Gwrith on pale horses."

However, a book from 1860 called Apostle of Ireland: The Life of St Patrick claims that Skene's transltion is: "Before two men in Nevtur will they land, Before Errith and Gurrith, on a pale white horse."

I have no way of knowing which of these translations is more accurate (does anyone?), but the first seems to make more sense - the horses are plural, for a start!
Nathan Ross
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#53
(09-14-2018, 05:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 02:47 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: he himself says that Latin is a "foreign language" and those that critique it call it "barbarous". So, the linguistic evidence shows Patrick WAS NOT born in Latin speaking Roman Britain.

I don't think this is what he means.

Patrick is saying (I think) that he is unable to express himself in Latin as well as he would like because at an early age he was taken prisoner and made to speak another language - meaning Irish.

He is quite clear that prior to his captivity he read and listened to Christian teachings, i.e. in Latin. His father and grandfather also had Latin names, and he was captured in a place with a Latin name too.


All of Patrick's writings, together with later biographies, can be found in translation here (including the letter to 'the soldiers of Coroticus' mentioned in this thread above: "I live as an alien among non-Roman peoples, an exile on account of the love of God"...)
Patrick was SIXTEEN when he was taken captive. And held captive for a mere SIX years. That's not that different from someone going to university in Scotland (traditionally 17 and for 4 years). What was he for the first 16 years? Deaf and mute?

He was clearly NOT brought up in a Latin speaking household and so ALL THE CRAP ABOUT HIM HAVING TO BE BROUGHT UP IN A LATIN SPEAKING PART OF BRITAIN IS RUBBISH.

Indeed many of the advocates of Wales use exactly this point to say he was born in Wales. But the historical evidence clearly points to Strathclyde.
(09-14-2018, 05:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 02:47 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: The location where Patrick was born (Nemthur) is recorded in the black book of Carmarthen as the fortress of "Neutur"

It looks like this is the interpretation by William Forbes Skene in 1868: "Neutur, or Nevtur — is probably the same place mentioned by Fiech in his Life of St. Patrick, written in the eighth century, as Nemhtur or Nevtur. It is identified by his scholiast with Alclyde or Dumbarton."

'Probably' suggests that the original text itself does not make this connection, I think, and we are back to this anonymous 'scholiast' again.

What does the passage from 'The Black Book of Carmarthen' actually say?
The key is that at Old Kilpatrick there is a place whose earlier recorded name is Dou-notyr (my hyphen). This is virtually indistinguishable from Neutur which scholars agree is likely Nemthur. This shows that Dalnotter had very likely retained the name of Neutur, or as it was before Nemthur/Nemeton.

But aren't you guilty of double standards?

I don't see you pointing out the obvious flaws with places like Glannibanta**. There's not one shred of historical evidence, and the name match is appalling. How can you suggest that "Bannavem taberniae" is Glannobanta (the form that was originally recorded). Sure, if you "correct" both names to make them look similar and then compare them, you might be able to fool the gullible. But if you compare the earliest forms the match is diabolical.

**All the variatnt
Clanoventa in Iter X of the Antonine Itinerary,
Glannibanta in the Notitia Dignitatum
Cantiventi in the Ravenna Cosmology

And what about Banwem - which rests on the say so of what some 8 year old thought he was told me his Grandfather (who probably just made it up based on some speculation he heard, as there was a paper not long before suggesting the name could be linked to any of the numerous "Banwens"). Or what about the place in Northamptonshire? Which is not exactly near the sea.

Old Kilpatrick has strong historical evidence and it has cast iron name matches (three places all in the right place). But you prefer appalling name matches with no historical evidence ... on the basis he must have spoken Latin ... when the evidence is clear that Latin was a foreign language.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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#54
(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: What was he for the first 16 years? Deaf and mute?

According to his own testimony, he was too lazy and sinful to learn! ("My sins then prevented me from really taking in what I read")


(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: ALL THE CRAP ABOUT HIM HAVING TO BE BROUGHT UP IN A LATIN SPEAKING PART OF BRITAIN IS RUBBISH.

Do you always react to criticism in this way?

It's not rubbish - he says himself that he considers himself to be Roman. The 'foreign language' he mentions is Irish. He, and his father and grandfather, have Latin names.


(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: This is virtually indistinguishable from Neutur which scholars agree is likely Nemthur.

See my added note to the post above. The mention of 'Neutur' (ineutur) in the Black Book looks very dubious. Only one Victorian antiquarian suggests that it refers to 'Nemthur'.


(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: I don't see you pointing out the obvious flaws with places like Glannobanta.

I never suggested Ravenglass - that was John, I think.


(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Sure, if you "correct" both names to make them look similar and then compare them

Is that not what you're doing?


(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Old Kilpatrick has strong historical evidence.

I didn't think there was any evidence for who might have been living at Old Kilpatrick in the 5th century.


(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: the evidence is clear that Latin was a foreign language.

I don't think you can read that reference in the Confession to mean anything but Irish. Matter of opinion, I guess!
Nathan Ross
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#55
(09-14-2018, 07:25 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: What was he for the first 16 years? Deaf and mute?

According to his own testimony, he was too lazy and sinful to learn! ("My sins then prevented me from really taking in what I read")

If you are trying to argue the various Latin terms means he was brought up in a Latin speaking area, then you are also arguing that he was speaking Latin until he was 16. If you're not arguing he was speaking Latin till 16, then you are arguing he was not brought up in a Latin speaking area ... hence no reason at all against Strathclyde.

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!

(09-14-2018, 07:25 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: ALL THE CRAP ABOUT HIM HAVING TO BE BROUGHT UP IN A LATIN SPEAKING PART OF BRITAIN IS RUBBISH.

Do you always react to criticism in this way?

It's not rubbish - he says himself that he considers himself to be Roman. The 'foreign language' he mentions is Irish. He, and his father and grandfather, have Latin names.
I do when you're trying to argue black is white
(09-14-2018, 07:25 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: This is virtually indistinguishable from Neutur which scholars agree is likely Nemthur.

See my added note to the post above. The mention of 'Neutur' (ineutur) in the Black Book looks very dubious. Only one Victorian antiquarian suggests that it refers to 'Nemthur'.
Does it add to the weight of evidence for Kilpatrick with the close by Notyr or not? Unless you can show me a positive identification to somewhere else the answer is it does.
(09-14-2018, 07:25 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: I don't see you pointing out the obvious flaws with places like Glannobanta.

I never suggested Ravenglass - that was John, I think.
So where are you suggesting? Banwen?
(09-14-2018, 07:25 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Sure, if you "correct" both names to make them look similar and then compare them

Is that not what you're doing?
All I do is take MEDIONEMETON and split it to MEDIO & NEMETON.

Then NEMETON IS compared with the various names (Gaelic) NEMTHUR & Latin (NEMTURRI).

The main difference is a single letter ... the last n ... which could easily be a copy mistake for r (n/r)
(09-14-2018, 07:25 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Old Kilpatrick has strong historical evidence.

I didn't think there was any evidence for who might have been living at Old Kilpatrick in the 5th century.
We have three of the five lives saying Strathclyde and Dumbarton Rock. THERE IS NOTHING GIVING ANYWHERE ELSE FOR HIS BIRTHPLACE. All the historic evidence points to one area around Kilpatrick.
(09-14-2018, 07:25 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:09 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: the evidence is clear that Latin was a foreign language.

I don't think you can read that reference in the Confession to mean anything but Irish. Matter of opinion, I guess!

Patrick in his own words calls Latin a “foreign language”.

“Nam sermo et loquela nostra translata est in linguam alienam”
Whereas this speech and utterance of mine is here transformed into another tongue; (Confessio 9)

If Patrick has been brought up within the Roman empire, by a Latin speaking Roman town councillor, not only would he have spoken Latin at home, but he would be expected to learn good Latin at School. A Roman town would certainly have at its disposal the services of a grammaticus who would teach pupils standard latin on the best classical models (Bieler, 1967).

The very evidence used to dismiss Strathclyde: the Latin Patrick uses, is the evidence that shows he was not born in Latin speaking Roman Britain. For Patrick was so poor at Latin, that Mohrmann (1961), described Patrick's writing as “the most difficult Latin to understand and to criticise that I have ever studied.” Professor Binchy described his writing as the 'simple Patrick of the Confessio', a writer of 'stumbling barbarous Latin' (Binchy 1962). This shows Patrick was not brought up in a Latin speaking home as those arguing against Strathclyde assert.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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#56
(09-14-2018, 07:41 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Then NEMETON IS compared with the various names (Gaelic) NEMTHUR & Latin (NEMTURRI). The main difference is a single letter ... the last n ... which could easily be a copy mistake for r (n/r)

Where are you getting 'Nemturri' from now?

All I see is a similarity in the first three letters, and a 'T'. As for 'copy mistakes' - this sounds like 'correcting names' to me.


(09-14-2018, 07:41 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: We have three of the five lives saying Strathclyde and Dumbarton Rock.

All three based, I think, on the single note by the anonymous scholiast on Fiach - a medieval writer commenting on a earlier medieval semi-legendary saint's life.

Fiach's nemthur, as several writers suggest, is Gaelic for 'holy tower'. So not a place name, but a description. 'Nemeton' does not mean Holy Tower.


(09-14-2018, 07:41 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Patrick in his own words calls Latin a “foreign language”.

I still believe he does not - but the full text is available in both English and Latin, so let everyone decide for themselves.


(09-14-2018, 07:41 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: If Patrick has been brought up within the Roman empire, by a Latin speaking Roman town councillor, not only would he have spoken Latin at home, but he would be expected to learn good Latin at School.

He did, it seems. He says that in his youth, before his captivity, "my sins... prevented me from really taking in what I read." What language do you suggest he was reading in?

I would guess that his cultural background was as much British as Roman/Latin - he apparently had an alternative British name - but by the 5th century, especially in the western districts of sub-Roman Britain, the standard of Latin was probably not very high anyway.
Nathan Ross
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#57
(09-14-2018, 08:02 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:41 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Then NEMETON IS compared with the various names (Gaelic) NEMTHUR & Latin (NEMTURRI). The main difference is a single letter ... the last n ... which could easily be a copy mistake for r (n/r)

Where are you getting 'Nemturri' from now?

Grammar Of The Iberno-Celtic Or Irish Language

Illustrations of Anglo-Saxon Poetry

The life of Saint Patrick, Apostle of Ireland

(09-14-2018, 08:02 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: All I see is a similarity in the first three letters, and a 'T'. As for 'copy mistakes' - this sounds like 'correcting names' to me.

The key letters are the consonants: NMTN comparedto NMTR

If you the compare the vowels as well you get: NEM-T-[n/r]

You can largely ignore the ending because that usually depends on the endings in use in the various languages so they don't reflect the original, but the languages through which it was translated.

(09-14-2018, 08:02 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:41 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: We have three of the five lives saying Strathclyde and Dumbarton Rock.

All three based, I think, on the single note by the anonymous scholiast on Fiach - a medieval writer commenting on a earlier medieval semi-legendary saint's life.

Fiach's nemthur, as several writers suggest, is Gaelic for 'holy tower'. So not a place name, but a description. 'Nemeton' does not mean Holy Tower.

And how much of Roman history is based on a single source? Are you proposing that every thing that only has a single source is rejected as false? Come on, in the face of NO EVIDENCE for anywhere else, you know full well it's a ridiculous argument to say that it can't be Strathclyde because the early lives said it was in Strathclyde and YOU THINK it must have come from one source. And what is your evidence it came from one source? None at all! It's just pure speculation.

(09-14-2018, 08:02 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:41 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Patrick in his own words calls Latin a “foreign language”.

I still believe he does not - but the full text is available in both English and Latin, so let everyone decide for themselves.
I've shown two good sources that show he used "barbarous" Latin which shows he was not a native speaker.

(09-14-2018, 08:02 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 07:41 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: If Patrick has been brought up within the Roman empire, by a Latin speaking Roman town councillor, not only would he have spoken Latin at home, but he would be expected to learn good Latin at School.

He did, it seems. He says that in his youth, before his captivity, "my sins... prevented me from really taking in what I read." What language do you suggest he was reading in?

I would guess that his cultural background was as much British as Roman/Latin - he apparently had an alternative British name - but by the 5th century, especially in the western districts of sub-Roman Britain, the standard of Latin was probably not very high anyway.

His father & grandfather had Latin names, but Patrick was not a native Latin speaker. It is therefore likely as an immigrant to Strathclyde, that he had access to Latin texts, but like all immigrants ... probably didn't see a lot of point in learning what was to him a "foreign language" (as he puts it).

In contrast, if he were born in Latin speaking Britain, then he would have learnt Latin at home and Latin would have been seen as an obvious advantage to an intelligent boy like Patrick.

Perhaps you are speaking from the viewpoint of the monolingual Brit for whom learning a foreign language is a chore. Let me put it in its proper context. A few years ago I went to Denmark camping. I had learnt Danish and was looking forward to trying it out. I tried a few Adults, but as soon as I spoke, they answered in English. So I tried some teenagers, they similarly just answered in English. Eventually I bumped into a 5year old excused myself in Danish and they answered in English. In all my time there, I only once managed to find anyone to speak Danish to ... and that was a drunk fisherman from a very rural area.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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#58
(09-14-2018, 08:36 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Grammar Of The Iberno-Celtic Or Irish Language

Illustrations of Anglo-Saxon Poetry

The life of Saint Patrick, Apostle of Ireland

You can largely ignore the ending because that usually depends on the endings in use in the various languages

All those are the same source - Fiach again.

So 'Nemturri' is the Latin translation of Fiach's nemthur. Interesting - could the turri bit come from Latin turris: tower?

Yes, the endings are different. The words themselves are different too. Ignoring the endings doesn't make them the same!


(09-14-2018, 08:36 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Are you proposing that every thing that only has a single source is rejected as false?

Of course not. But some sources are more reliable and better supported than others. Anonymous religious texts written hundreds of years after the fact are notoriously unreliable, as we've discussed before.


(09-14-2018, 08:36 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: And what is your evidence it came from one source? None at all! It's just pure speculation.

Because... it's all from one source?

You might be assuming there was some 'lost source' or other that informed both Fiach, his scholiast, and those who came after him - but that would indeed be 'pure speculation'!

The early Irish were very keen on preserving anything they could find about Patrick. If there were other sources available about his origins, I expect they would have been preserved too. But the earliest sources don't tell us anything about where he was born, just where he was captured.

This place, 'Bannauem Taburniae' (which Mirchu tells us is now called 'Ventre' - whatever that means!) is completely unidentifiable.

Although I must say it sounds very much like Tafarn-y-Banwen (Banwen = Banauen / Tafarn = tavern = Taburnaie) to me, so if I was going to play the guess-the-garbled-placename I'd go for that one!


(09-14-2018, 08:36 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Patrick was not a native Latin speaker... he had access to Latin texts, but like all immigrants ...

So you concede that he must have been reading in Latin, at least? So he was able to read, and had been educated to some degree in Latin... and his family had Latin names... and they were Christian clergy... and he refers to himself, obliquely at least, as a Roman and says his family lived in Britain...

I don't see anything here to suggest he was not from sub-Roman Britain! If he was an 'immigrant', then where was he immigrating to? The Kingdom of Strathclyde did not exist until a century or two later.


(09-14-2018, 08:36 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Perhaps you are speaking from the viewpoint of the monolingual Brit for whom learning a foreign language is a chore.

ഇല്ല !
Nathan Ross
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#59
(09-14-2018, 09:01 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Yes, the endings are different. The words themselves are different too. Ignoring the endings doesn't make them the same!
If you can tell me what the word endings in use in Strathclyde Welsh and can show me how they would be translated into Gaelic, Irish and Latin, then you might have a point. But as we don't. About the only thing that the endings tell us is the gender of the words ... it is otherwise pretty useless, which is why the endings get ignored.

(09-14-2018, 09:01 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 08:36 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Are you proposing that every thing that only has a single source is rejected as false?

Of course not. But some sources are more reliable and better supported than others. Anonymous religious texts written hundreds of years after the fact are notoriously unreliable, as we've discussed before.

So, you accept that a single source cannot be just dismissed. But what about a single source, which is corroborated by the place names as is the TRIPLE fit between Muildy=Medio, NEMETON=Nemthur=Neutur=Notyr and Dobiadon=Dumbarton?

I am beginning to think that if I went to Old Kilpatrick and found in the ground a signpost saying "NEMETON" you'd still say: "But it's only a single source".

(09-14-2018, 09:01 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 08:36 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: And what is your evidence it came from one source? None at all! It's just pure speculation.

Because... it's all from one source?

How do you know they are not independently coming to the same conclusion based on three different sources?
Does it say in the text: "I found from [single-source] that the name was Nemthur?"

(09-14-2018, 09:01 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: You might be assuming there was some 'lost source' or other that informed both Fiach, his scholiast, and those who came after him - but that would indeed be 'pure speculation'!

The early Irish were very keen on preserving anything they could find about Patrick. If there were other sources available about his origins, I expect they would have been preserved too. But the earliest sources don't tell us anything about where he was born, just where he was captured.

Texts get lost, texts get burnt. Floods occur. Less used texts get recycled. Over time the number of sources decrease. We cannot say that just because we only know of one source, that at the time of writing there was only one source unless we have EVIDENCE to show there was only one source.

(09-14-2018, 09:01 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: This place, 'Bannavem Taburniae' (which Mirchu tells us is now called 'Ventre' - whatever that means!) is completely unidentifiable.

V=N -> Nentre AKA neutur AKA nemturri


(09-14-2018, 09:01 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Although I must say it sounds very much like Tafarn-y-Banwen (Banwen = Banuen / Taburnaie = Tafarn) to me, so if I was going to play the guess-the-garbled-placename I'd go for that one!

Tafarn-y-Banwen looks to me too far from the sea to be even one of the "also ran" contenders.

However, whilst his birthplace is at Nemthur in Strathclyde, there is nothing in what Patrick writes that excludes the possibility that his Grandfather's home was elsewhere. Indeed, all we can really say is that by the argument that Patrick was not a native speaker of Latin so probably was born outside any Latin speaking area, his Grandfather had a Latin name, so it is possible that this was a Latin speaking area "near the sea" exposed to Irish raiders.

All I can really say is that the sources are quiet as to how far apart Nemthur and Bannavem Tabernniae were.

(09-14-2018, 09:01 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 08:36 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Patrick was not a native Latin speaker... he had access to Latin texts, but like all immigrants ...

So you concede that he must have been reading in Latin, at least? So he was able to read, and had been educated to some degree in Latin... and his family had Latin names... and they were Christian clergy... and he refers to himself, obliquely at least, as a Roman and says his family lived in Britain...

I don't see anything here to suggest he was not from sub-Roman Britain! If he was an 'immigrant', then where was he immigrating to? The Kingdom of Strathclyde did not exist until a century or two later.
First as Calgacus makes clear, Briton was all of what we now call Britain. Briton wasn't England.

We have to go on the evidence. Patrick's father and grandfather had Latin names and whilst Patrick was far from fluent in Latin, he clearly learnt some Latin. If he started life in Strathclyde, was kidnapped to Ireland, made his way back, went back to Ireland as a missionary ...
Where does he learn his barbarous Latin?

You have to postulate that he was taught "barbarous" Latin by his father - who wasn't himself fluent in Latin - or that there was a small community of "barbarous" Latin speakers in Strathclyde which would fit a small, relatively isolated community formed largely from runaway slaves and persecuted religious groups like Christians (who tended to be from the lower orders of society). Slaves would often not be native Latin speakers. So, whilst the only language runaway slaves would have in common was Latin, what they spoke would be far from eloquent. In effect it would be a creole.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Muildy=Medio, NEMETON=Nemthur=Neutur=Notyr and Dobiadon=Dumbarton?

Muildy does not sound to me like 'Medio', and it doesn't mean 'middle' either.

Fiach's scholiast says that Nemthur was Dumbarton, not 'nemeton', nor Old Kilpatrick.

'Nemeton', if it is a word, is in the middle of the RC Antonine Wall list, not at one end.

'(Sub)Dobiadon' only sounds like Dumbarton if you say it with a mouthful of peas.

Anyway, Dumbarton is the medieval name; in the 5th-6th century it was called Alt Clud, which doesn't sound like any of these names.


(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: I am beginning to think that if I went to Old Kilpatrick and found in the ground a signpost saying "NEMETON" you'd still say: "But it's only a single source".

If you did that I would applaud your genius detective-work. But you have not.


(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: How do you know they are not independently coming to the same conclusion based on three different sources?... unless we have EVIDENCE to show there was only one source.

As you know it is impossible to use evidence to prove a negative. If there were other sources, what were they? Why does nobody mention them?


(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Tafarn-y-Banwen looks to me too far from the sea to be even one of the "also ran" contenders.

14 miles. These Irish pirates must have been very easy to avoid if they were put off by that distance.


(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Where does he learn his barbarous Latin?

Good question! If it wasn't his native language, how did he come to speak it?...

We have inscriptional evidence for the survival of Latin in the post-Roman west of Britain, alongside the native 'Cumbric' language. That Patrick grew up speaking a pretty rustic sort of Latin, mingled with British, would not be surprising. This doesn't tell us anything about where he was from.


(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: a small, relatively isolated community formed largely from runaway slaves and persecuted religious groups like Christians (who tended to be from the lower orders of society).

By the birth of Patrick, Christians had not been persecuted for over 100 years. The whole empire was officially Christian, from the emperors downward, and had been for decades. Christians had not been principally 'from the lower orders' since the days of Nero.

If you have any evidence for small communities of Latin-speaking Christians, who call themselves 'Romans', living anywhere outside the old borders of the empire in 'barbarian' territory, in the 4th or 5th century, you might get some support for this idea. If not, you're relying on imagination.
Nathan Ross
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