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The two Vegetii
#16
This passage is Mulomedicina, II, 79, 16. The whole chapter deals with disorders of the bladder, nothing to do with gelding. The very old (1748) and, as far as I know, only English translation has the passage as III, 15 and renders it as:

But among the Sarmatians, whose Horses were greatly valued by the Ancients, use found out that if Animals be wrapped up in Cloaths from the Neck to the Feet, and be fumigated with live Coals put under them with Castor added to them, that so the Smoak of the Castor may with its Steam warm the whole Body and their Testicles, and if after the Coals are withdrawn, they presently walk up and down all covered, they will stale.

'Stale' means 'urinate'.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#17
Thank you gentlemen, the dangers of relying on Google Translate for Latin, not anymore. Somewhere in there google translated some of the text as a clean cut and testicles.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#18
Nathan Ross wrote:
 I now see that his footnote mentions that Goffart (1977) 'assumes that V was comes sacri stabuli under Valentinian III, c.440, without argument.'

Hi Nathan I have Goffart’s 1977 paper and after scanning it all he says on the subject of Vegetius and the post “comes sacri stabuli” is, It might as plausibly be held (on the basis of the Mulomedicina) that his office had been that of count of the sacred stables. 

Ralf Scharf on the other hand who is also in Milner's footnotes on page XXXV just after Goffart was the one who in his paper Der comes sacri stabuli in der Spätantike or The comes sacri stabuli in late Antiquity who claimed that Vegetius served in this position under Valentinian III.
My rough Google translation of some revelant paragraphs in his paper which is in German. 

 In the Notitia Dignitatum the office of comes sacri stabuli was not mentioned. It was probably so insignificant that it did not have its own chapter, but again significant enough that it is no longer mentioned as a subordinate office in other chapters of the Notitia.

 Around the year 440, the rank of a vir illustris was already associated with the comitiva sacri stabuli in the west. However, every message about the office is missing for the next few decades. After Vegetius, held the office probably under Valentinian III, there is only the brief report on the death of a comes stabuli in the fight against the Visigoths 471.

 This particular comes stabuli  who died in 471 would have been Hermianus who served under Anthemius against Euric. 

 He then lists a few people, some who are below, who have held the post or a similar one including Valens, before he became Eastern Emperor, Stilicho, Vegetius and also the eastern Flavius Aetius who held the post under Marcian in 451.  Smile

   

Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#19
(04-15-2018, 04:36 PM)Michael Kerr Wrote: It might as plausibly be held... that his office had been that of count of the sacred stables.

Hi Michael - apologies for the delay in answering this.

Some interesting points, but I think the extra information would seem to count against the idea that Vegetius was comes sacri stabuli.

One thing we do know about V is that he was not a military man, or had no military experience anyway. Of the known C.S.S listed, however, Stilicho and Aetius were certainly soldiers, Valerianus died in battle at Adrianople and Hermianus was killed fighting the Visigoths. Cerealis is not specifically noted as a soldier, but seems to have taken a rather active role in the promotion of Valentinian II. I'm not sure that Ptolemaus was ever a comes - Claudian just called him miles stabuli - a soldier, again.

So it seems like the position was principally a military one, perhaps a sort of senior staff officer or quartermaster-general, rather than a civilian post having to do with horses!
Nathan Ross
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#20
I'm not aware of Aetius holding the post of Comes Sacri Stabuli. He was Protector Domesticus, Tribunis Partis Militaris, and Cura Palatii, but then went straight to Comes et Magister Militum per Gallias.
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#21
Scharf's full article is here:

https://tyche-journal.at/tyche/index.php...ew/220/336

The reference to Aetius is at the top of p.146
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#22
(04-30-2018, 07:30 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote: I'm not aware of Aetius holding the post of Comes Sacri Stabuli.

Yes, it was the other Flavius Aetius that Scharf was talking about - the eastern one. My mistake! (then again, I suspect that the 'cura palatii' - did we ever work out the source for that? - might have been something like a synonym for this position...)


(04-30-2018, 09:08 PM)Renatus Wrote: Scharf's full article is here:

Thanks! Almost all the names listed in the prosopography at the end appear to have military connections - the (eastern) Aetius was also comes domesticorum, which was at least para-military- except Vegetius, who appears on the list without a supporting source. So I don't think we can regard the comes stabuli as a civilian role, and it doesn't fit Vegetius.
Nathan Ross
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#23
Nathan Ross wtote:

 So it seems like the position was principally a military one, perhaps a sort of senior staff officer or quartermaster-general, rather than a civilian post having to do with horses!

I agree with your point that there is no source material which mentions that Vegetius was a comes Stabuli and he was not a military man just a handful of modern authors like Goffart seem to think that due to him writing a book on horse treatments. I tend to agree with S.H.Rosenbaum that he may have been more involved as a high ranking bureaucrat or official in the state transport and communication apparatus, the cursus publicus. Of course that is if we assume that the two Vegetii are the same person which is by no means certain.

But just on the comes stabuli, military men often filled this position yes but at various times it seems that family connections and nepotism was prevalent when filling these positions. Noel Lenski wrote in his book Failure of Empire that in the fourth century there were eight tribuni or Comites stabuli which are securely attested. Four of these were under the Valentiniani and three of these were somehow connected with the imperial family.

 Firstly Valens, followed by Cerealis and Constantianus who were both brothers of Valentinian’s second wife Justina so Cerealis was Valentinian II’s uncle. His brother Constantianus was comes stabuli when he was ambushed and slain in Gaul by brigands according to Ammianus and Cerealis assumed the position after that. Even though Stilicho was a soldier it seems he was appointed comes stabuli around the same time he married Theodosius’s niece Serena. Lenski goes on to add that this position carried great responsibilities. They ranked with the tribunes of the Scholae Palatinae and had regular contact with these. They were charged with the collection of horses not only for the imperial court but also the cavalry so the comes stabuli had to know something about horses which is probably why Goffart and Scharf seem sure Vegetius filled this position. As to  Ptolemaeus, Alan Cameron in his book on Claudian, preferred to identify him as a comes stabuli on the grounds that Claudian terms him “better known” among the slave Eutropius’s owners and discusses him at length in his work  In Eutropium.

 Both Valentinian and Valens spent time overhauling the levying of horses from the provinces so the comes stabuli was an important function and they probably trusted only family members and capable men from Pannonia. Valentinian in particular was trying to stamp out corruption by agents collecting extravagant sums of money to buy quality horses but then proceed to buy cheap nags and pocket the difference, he even had one agent stoned in Sardinia for the corrupt practice while Valens re-organised the province of Cappadocia into two provinces so that he could better manage the horse ranches there and instituted laws to pay horse ranch farners  a fixed rate of 23 solidi for a good horse, quite generous so it is easy to see that under these two emperors the comes stabuli being a person you could trust would have been essential to reign in corruption.

Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#24
(05-03-2018, 04:35 PM)Michael Kerr Wrote: at various times it seems that family connections and nepotism was prevalent when filling these positions.

Yes, good point! Aso, it seems sometimes unclear what the division between military and civilian was at the imperial court - the Master of Offices was a civilian, but carried a sword, apparently, and commanded the Scholae - who in turn seem to have losing their elite military status anyway around this time... So who knows?


(05-03-2018, 04:35 PM)Michael Kerr Wrote: Lenski goes on to add that... They were charged with the collection of horses... so the comes stabuli had to know something about horses... laws to pay horse ranch farners  a fixed rate of 23 solidi for a good horse

Interesting details! Without wanting to sound madly picky, though, what evidence does Lenski put forward that the trib stabuli was 'charged with the collection of horses'? It seems from his preceding paragraph that other scholars have not believed this to be the case... (I'm just looking at the preview available on Google Books, so I can't see the footnotes!). Does the Theodoret anecdote he mentions in that same section specifically name the tribunus stabuli, or is this Lenski's gloss on a more vague reference?

I would think if Vegetius really did have intimate knowledge of the the emperor's cavalry forces, he might have said a bit more about cavalry in his book!...
Nathan Ross
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#25
(05-03-2018, 05:27 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Yes, good point! Aso, it seems sometimes unclear what the division between military and civilian was at the imperial court - the Master of Offices was a civilian, but carried a sword, apparently, and commanded the Scholae - who in turn seem to have losing their elite military status anyway around this time... So who knows?


I think both soldiers as well as civil servants were called 'militare', and both could wear the cingulum as well as those crossbow fibulae. Soldiers were 'militare armata'.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#26
(05-03-2018, 06:01 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: both soldiers as well as civil servants were called 'militare', and both could wear the cingulum as well as those crossbow fibulae. Soldiers were 'militare armata'.

Yep, exactly - hard to tell the difference between a true soldier and a 'bureaucratic' one!

Although I doubt the civil servants were ever required to fight - unless things got really desperate...
Nathan Ross
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#27
Nathan Ross wrote:

 Without wanting to sound madly picky, though, what evidence does Lenski put forward that the trib stabuli was 'charged with the collection of horses'? 

 Not being picky and a good question, we can always get back to Vegetius later. Going by the notes he is relying a lot on AHM Jones’s book The Later Roman Empire. Jones wrote that the tribunus (later comes) stabuli commanded a corps of grooms and equerries (stratores) and was responsible for the levy of horses not only for the court but for the cavalry as a whole. Jones later writes “horses were the responsibility of the tribune of the stable, an officer of the comitatus who ranked with the tribunes of the scholae: He commanded the corps of stratores (or grooms), one of whose duties it was to examine the horses levied from the provincials by the governors.” It must have been a lucrative position with a handsome income as after Valentinian limited the fees charged to reign in extortion. Stratores fees were limited to one solidus per horse while the comes stabuli also drew a fee of two solidi per horse requisitioned. After 401 the fees charged by later comes stabuli were abolished to lower prices but apparently they still managed to get a cut. Jones in his footnotes on comes stabuli references has Ammianus and the Theodosian Code.

 Just as an aside The Franks borrowed the title, and under the Merovingian and Carolingian kings of western Europe the comes stabuli was in charge of the royal stud.

Nathan Ross wrote:
Does the Theodoret anecdote he mentions in that same section specifically name the tribunus stabuli, or is this Lenski's gloss on a more vague reference?

In Theodoret’s work the name of the comes stabuli is not mentioned just a reference to a man who is close to the emperor and in charge of the care of his horses. This person was not a vet or groom but he had the power to summon those who could tend to horses so yes Lenski might be stretching it a bit but he probably thinks he has reasonable grounds. Here is the reference from Theodoret.

11. He learnt of the man's power from another incident as well. A certain horse of good breed and trained to be an excellent mount was particularly dear to the emperor. To the great distress of the emperor it caught a disease: its secretion of urine was blocked. Those trained in the skill were summoned to tend it; but to the distress of the emperor and the grief of the man entrusted with the care of the horses, their skill was defeated. Being pious and strong in faith, he repaired at midday to the dwelling of the great Aphrahat. After mentioning the disease and declaring his faith, he besought him to dispel the complaint by prayer. Without delaying for a moment but instantly beseeching God, he ordered water to be drawn from the well, and making on this the sign of the cross of salvation gave instructions for it to be given to the horse, which, contrary to its habit, drank it. Then consecrating oil by the invocation of the divine blessing, he anointed the horse's belly: at the touch of his hand the disease immediately departed and at once natural secretion took place. In great joy the man took the horse and ran back to the stable.
12. In the evening the emperor, who was in the habit of visiting the stable at this time, came and asked how the horse was. When the man told of his good health and led the horse out, vigorous, prancing, neighing, and holding his neck up proudly, he inquired after the cause of health. After evading reply several times- for he feared to indicate the doctor, knowing the enmity of the questioner he was finally forced to tell the truth and told of the manner of cure. The emperor was astonished and agreed that the man was remarkable. However, he was not freed of his earlier madness, but persisted in raging against the Only-begotten until he became a casualty of a fire lit by barbarians and did not even receive a burial like servants or beggars. 

Nathan Ross wrote:
I would think if Vegetius really did have intimate knowledge of the the emperor's cavalry forces, he might have said a bit more about cavalry in his book!...

Vegetius was writing more about infantry and Milner did say in his book that it is also very selective; cavalry warfare and river patrol boats are expressly omitted on the grounds that late-Roman progress in these areas rendered them above criticism. Vegetius being a non military person would not know much about cavalry tactics. I suppose if he was not a comes stabuli then why would he want to step on toes. It should be noted that Vegetius main concern in his Mulomedicinae was care and selection of horses, mules and cattle and a good amount of criticism of some of the practices of his times compared to the past, a theme he seems to hammer his readers with in his Epitome as well. Cavalry tactics and forces were not his concern in Mulomedicinae but he did write about his thoughts about what breeds suited military, horse racing which was extremely popular, and riding horses for travelling which he claims to have done extensively. As to military horses he must have conversed with lots of officers who probably told him about the different qualities of war horses. He also talks a lot about ambling horses which would make excellent carriage horses. His system was identifying horses was by their countries of origin. Seems to me that he was railing against corruption himself with unqualified vets charging exorbitant fees, certain farmers and officials not stabling their horses in winters and dodgy horse traders to passing off low quality horses. Seems to me that he was a high ranking bureaucrat trying to keep a rein on expenses and telling his audience how to care for their livestock without resorting to shonksters  passing themselves off as vets. Just on Vegetius it is interesting that in his Mulomedicinae he still talks of the various types of African horses which seemed to be at the time the most suitable and popular horses for the various circuses that dotted the empire so I am assuming that the Vandals had not yet taken North Africa at the time of his writing his Mulomedicinae.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#28
(05-04-2018, 06:15 AM)Michael Kerr Wrote:
In Theodoret’s work the name of the comes stabuli is not mentioned just a reference to a man who is close to the emperor and in charge of the care of his horses. This person was not a vet or groom but he had the power to summon those who could tend to horses so yes Lenski might be stretching it a bit but he probably thinks he has reasonable grounds. Here is the reference from Theodoret.

Do you have the full reference? I'm wondering if 'the man entrusted with the care of the horses' is a translator's gloss on a more technical term.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#29
Theodoret Historia Religiosa 8.11-12

   

Regards
michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#30
(05-04-2018, 06:15 AM)Michael Kerr Wrote: Jones later writes “horses were the responsibility of the tribune of the stable, an officer of the comitatus who ranked with the tribunes of the scholae: He commanded the corps of stratores (or grooms), one of whose duties it was to examine the horses levied from the provincials by the governors.”... Jones in his footnotes on comes stabuli references has Ammianus and the Theodosian Code.

The references that Jones gives for the Comes/Tribunus Stabuli (in Later Roman Empire, Vol 3, pages 78 and 189) are:

CTh XI. n.16 / CTh XI.18.1.412 / CTh VI. 13.1

The references he gives for the Cura Palatii (which he suggests is a similar position) appear to be exactly the same.

For Stratores he gives CTh vi.31.1.365 and several others. There are also a number of references from Ammianus for individual office holders (or men who appear to be holding this office!)

I don't have a copy of the Theodosian Code that has these sections - could somebody perhaps check up the references?

I'm wondering if the title is given specifically, and also whether there is an established link between the stratores - who certainly had duties connected with horses - and the tribunus/comes stabuli. Jones might just be inferring the latter, perhaps?


(05-04-2018, 06:15 AM)Michael Kerr Wrote: The Franks borrowed the title, and under the Merovingian and Carolingian kings of western Europe the comes stabuli was in charge of the royal stud.

Thanks - that sounds quite convincing! Although things might have changed...

Thanks too for the passage from Theodoret. However, I don't find that one so convincing - the untitled officer in the passage appears to have had direct hands-on responsibility for the emperor's horse, including its health. This would be a job for a senior groom, I would think, and not for a highly-placed palatine official!

So I still don't see anything (yet) that proves the comes stabuli had to have any direct equine knowledge or experience, or that the civilian Vegetius might have held the position!
Nathan Ross
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