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What Type of Pugio's Are needed?
#1
I have had a number of people request that I make them Pugios. So I say... ****POOF!!!**** You're a Pugio! 

Anyone have any thoughts about what style and era is a much needed Pugio?

My clientele is expanding now and I will be slowly making a wider variety of swords if I can get the research and documentation on one's I haven't done. 
Although I am presently not looking at swords that would have to have components cast... I have the artistic ability to make castings, just am not set up for it at this time.

I am currently researching Pompeii Blades, 1st -5rd Century Spatha, Hispanesis, and now Pugio's or is it Pugii? LOL

What are your thoughts? Are there any specific swords / pugio that are not being made or being made well that people want or need?

I am also currently setting up my shop to make scabbards.

If any of you have Research Information that would help me develop any of the above, I would greatly appreciate it. I believe many of you know my reputation and that I am here to serve and offer awesome quality swords at very affordable prices.

Your help and comments are greatly appreciated. If you would rather send me research information privately you can do so by sending it to me email at: [email protected]

In His Service and yours... 

--Patrick
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#2
If saying "what style and era is a much needed Pugio" you mean from a commercial point of view, I have not idea, but if you are looking for some informations from an historical point of view, you can get some informations on the book "pugio - gladius brevis est". 
Suggesting this, I guess  I am not breaking RAT's rules since it also is in open source (free download) on Academia.edu.
Marco

Civis Romanus Optime Iure Sum
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#3
Not Quite a full edition some of the text is blanked out:

https://www.academia.edu/16076696/Pugio_...brevis_est

Full Print version from Oxbow books:

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/pugio-gl...s-est.html


On what people want, likely this is mostly going to be Ist or 2nd century, but unless you intend to mass produce at a cheaper rate or at least have a selection for sale at events its probably irrelevant....
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#4
(04-18-2017, 08:07 AM)Crispianus Wrote: Not Quite a full edition some of the text is blanked out:

https://www.academia.edu/16076696/Pugio_...brevis_est

Full Print version from Oxbow books:

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/pugio-gl...s-est.html


On what people want, likely this is mostly going to be Ist or 2nd century, but unless you intend to mass produce at a cheaper rate or at least have a selection for sale at events its probably irrelevant....

Crispianus... Thank you for those links.  I have written the author for permission to use.  Wow... I'd love to own that book too!  It is on Amazon for $222.60 USD in used condition.

--Patrick

(04-18-2017, 07:04 AM)marcos Wrote: If saying "what style and era is a much needed Pugio" you mean from a commercial point of view, I have not idea, but if you are looking for some informations from an historical point of view, you can get some informations on the book "pugio - gladius brevis est". 
Suggesting this, I guess  I am not breaking RAT's rules since it also is in open source (free download) on Academia.edu.

Thank You Marcos... 
I have sent a message to the author for permission to use.  Much appreciated!
--Patrick
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#5
(04-18-2017, 10:00 PM)Pointer Wrote:  It is on Amazon for $222.60 USD in used condition.

--Patrick

Which is why its best to get it direct from either Oxbow or BAR(the publishers) as most vendors seem to be overcharging for it, the actual price is 30GBP or about 35 dollars US plus post....
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#6
Send me a PM, I can help you.
Marco

Civis Romanus Optime Iure Sum
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#7
Please note that a LOT of pugiones on the market are not correct for the first century depicted by most reenactors. The first century pugio is a lot slimmer then the third century ones now mostly on offer. So perhaps you would want to look into that and see if historicly correct pugiones could be offered for that period. The book mentioned is a great reference and an absolute must if you are going to take up making pugiones IMHO. I have it and it is very well documented with a great many pictures, kind of like Miks for pugiones Heart . Good initiative, Patrick!
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#8
(05-04-2017, 09:52 AM)Robert Wrote: Please note that a LOT of pugiones on the market are not correct for the first century depicted by most reenactors. The first century pugio is a lot slimmer then the third century ones now mostly on offer. So perhaps you would want to look into that and see if historicly correct pugiones could be offered for that period. The book mentioned is a great reference and an absolute must if you are going to take up making pugiones IMHO. I have it and it is very well documented with a great many pictures, kind of like Miks for pugiones Heart . Good initiative, Patrick!

Good Early Morning Robert...

I am not sure I saw the posting for the book you just mentioned.  I may have downloaded the online version... I am not sure... as for Miks... I am trying to get a copy of his book.  It is currently out of print.  Are there any Pugiones in Miks book?

--Patrick
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#9
The book "Pugio - Gladius brevis est" was the one I am refering to. Miks does not deal with pugiones, altough it does have a number of short blades depicted. The book by Marco Soliola and Fabrizio Casprini is a must have for those getting into pugio re-construction, I feel. It also has a great typology of bladeshapes for the different periods on pages 12 and 13, as can be seem on the download PDF.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#10
Glad to know you like that book (pugio - gladius brevis est), since I am one of the two humble authors
  Big Grin. Anyhow, if  someone of you need something, I willingly try to help.
Marco

Civis Romanus Optime Iure Sum
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#11
Hi Marco, I know Big Grin ! And the praise is well deserved, as you did a great job. I also really liked your analysis of the way the grip for the pugiones with the long tangs was constructed, as a scaled down swordgrip.

     
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#12
Thanks! I see in your thumnail that you made a pugio proprely in such way, very good. After all, that should not surprises, a pugio.... gladius brevis est!!
Marco

Civis Romanus Optime Iure Sum
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#13
"I also really liked your analysis of the way the grip for the pugiones with the long tangs was constructed, as a scaled down swordgrip."

Of course, Usk 1, which unusually for a pugio with a rod tang retains its original handle, features inlaid iron grip plates of the normal shape. The almost identical ivory handles from Hedderheim and the Walbrook in London are the same basic shape and size as one normally expects for a pugio handle but are solid with one side recessed for a normal iron grip plate and both are drilled from top to bottom to accommodate rod tangs. There is a pugio from Vindonissa with a rod tang and a bone sword grip, but this has been combined with the striker plate from the handle of a Mainz type sword, which is acting as a makeshift guard. This hodge-podge handle is clearly a makeshift replacement for the lost original handle, in order to keep the weapon serviceable. The Walbrook also produced another example of a quick and easy repair in the form of a pugio with a rod tang which had again clearly lost its original handle and had been refitted with a lathe-turned wooden tool handle and lacks any sort of guard, and is directly comparable with the Vindonissa example.

To these examples might possibly be added the Velsen pugio, which had entirely lost its tang, although the presence of a top plate showed the handle had been present when the body was deposited. The complete loss of the tang makes it seem more likely to me that it had a rod tang rather than a frame tang (the narrower rod tang would more quickly be eaten through by whatever corrosive substance was in the well than the wider frame type and fragments of a rod tang might have slipped more easily through the sieve than fragments of a frame tang would) and a drilled organic handle which had completely decomposed by the time of excavation (indeed, this may even have been the source of the corrosion), in a way that even the thin embossed style of grip plate would be unlikely to so comprehensively disappear. No silver inlay wire or enamel was found in the sieving, again suggesting a purely organic handle; presumably wood, as the antler top plate survived. Had there been a sword type grip as seen on the Vindonissa example it would have survived, like the top plate and the soldier's bones (and even part of the sole of one of his boots).

In fact, the only example I can think of where a pugio features a sword type handle as what appears to be an original feature is the huge pugio carried by the Herculaneum soldier. When I went to see the said soldier at the British Museum a year or two back, it was obvious that the pugio's handle was slightly smaller than the sword's handle. Two further observations must accompany this however. Firstly, although the pugio's sheath had clearly been made for it and was not a cut down sword scabbard, the blade was noticeably large for a pugio blade. Secondly, although the handle was slightly smaller than that of the sword, it was still very close in size to the handles on some of the swords found at Pompeii. This leads to the strong possibility that the Herculaneum soldier's pugio was yet another example of Roman recycling and that it may originally have been a broken sword which found a new existence as a rather unusual pugio. It is still within its sheath however, and although parts of it are exposed through holes burned through the sheath by the pyroclastic flow, sadly not enough is visible to see the form of the blade.

Thus with all these examples we see either a) that the rod tangs made use of handles of normal shape, b) that when they had lost their handles they had been repaired with something which came easily to hand which would do the job, or c) that a damaged sword might possibly be reused as a makeshift pugio.

Therefore I do NOT think it likely, as I have said here many times before, that most, or indeed many pugios would have been seen with what amounted to sword handles, no matter how much wishful thinking there is in some quarters that it might have been so.


Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#14
"The first century pugio is a lot slimmer then the third century ones now mostly on offer."

By no means all of them fit that description, although it is true that the 3rd Century pugios are normally much larger than those of the first and early second centuries AD. Using Scott's typology, type 'A' blades are often quite large and are generally broad with an upstanding midrib. Type 'B' blades tend to have a shape which narrows from the shoulders, runs parallel for a third to two fifths of the overall length, and then narrows to a sharp point. Whether or not they have this shape, type 'B' blades feature a pair of parallel grooves (or two pairs of parallel grooves), which defines a 'sunken' midrib. Type 'B' can be divided into two subtypes, namely type 'Bi' and type 'Bii'. Type 'Bi blades are broader, like the example from Xanten and tend to be larger overall, while type 'Bii' are narrower and often smaller overall, like most of the examples from Vindonissa. Mainly because of this, type 'B' sheath plates are also divided into types 'Bi' and 'Bii', although many 'Bi' pugios used type 'A' sheaths. Type 'C' blades tend to be shaped like narrow isocoles triangles and have an oval or lozenge shape cross section.

If Patrick is planning on making pugios which are unlike what is generally on the market (not that most of what is available is particularly accurate anyway), then I would suggest type B blades (of either type) and type 'B' sheaths to go with them, as these appear to have been just as common as type 'A' pugios and sheaths, but are almost entirely absent from modern reconstructions. I can supply plenty of pictures and advice, although you might want to practice your silver inlaying skills Patrick.

By the way, in answer to your question in the original post, the correct Latin plural of 'pugio' is 'pugiones'.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#15
(05-19-2017, 03:13 AM).Crispvs Wrote: "The first century pugio is a lot slimmer then the third century ones now mostly on offer."

By no means all of them fit that description, although it is true that the 3rd Century pugios are normally much larger than those of the first and early second centuries AD.  Using Scott's typology, type 'A' blades are often quite large and are generally broad with an upstanding midrib.  Type 'B' blades tend to have a shape which narrows from the shoulders, runs parallel for a third to two fifths of the overall length, and then narrows to a sharp point.  Whether or not they have this shape, type 'B' blades feature a pair of parallel grooves (or two pairs of parallel grooves), which defines a 'sunken' midrib.  Type 'B' can be divided into two subtypes, namely type 'Bi' and type 'Bii'.  Type 'Bi blades are broader, like the example from Xanten and tend to be larger overall, while type 'Bii' are narrower and often smaller overall, like most of the examples from Vindonissa.  Mainly because of this, type 'B' sheath plates are also divided into types 'Bi' and 'Bii', although many 'Bi' pugios used type 'A' sheaths.  Type 'C' blades tend to be shaped like narrow isocoles triangles and have an oval or lozenge shape cross section.

If Patrick is planning on making pugios which are unlike what is generally on the market (not that most of what is available is particularly accurate anyway), then I would suggest type B blades (of either type) and type 'B' sheaths to go with them, as these appear to have been just as common as type 'A' pugios and sheaths, but are almost entirely absent from modern reconstructions.  I can supply plenty of pictures and advice, although you might want to practice your silver inlaying skills Patrick.

By the way, in answer to your question in the original post, the correct Latin plural of 'pugio' is 'pugiones'.

Crispvs

Thank you to all who are responding to this post.

I am currently gathering research on all of these blades. Presently leaning more towards the rat-tail tangs with the smaller size sword type Hilts. Until I figure out how to make the hilt plates and reproduce them in a small one man operation.

I am investigating how to apply enamals to brass and bronze as well as doing inlays. I want to be able to keep them affordable as I have with my swords. Which could prove to be a problem.

Here is a question... somewhere about a year ago I ran across and inlay process of adding a black material to brass. I cannot remember what it is called and because of that I cannot find the research. I want to say it started with an "n". Nel-something.... any clues?
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