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Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor - New Book
(09-10-2016, 12:38 AM)Dan Howard Wrote: A cloth or leather T-Y should end at the navel and floating rib - just like a metal cuirass. If you can cinch it at the waist, it is too long (and too thin and flexible). But a cuirass performs better if you have some flexibility over the ribs, which is why scales are better than cloth or leather, and mail is best of all. Ideally you want flexibility all the way round but the right side is more important.

Yes, mine does, above the hip bone.  Because it is a tube you can cinch the waist by increasing the level of overlap of the two free ends, just as you can roll thick gauge metal.  I have not worn a scale corselet, but I have held them, and like mail it would seem that all of the weight hangs from the shoulders.  My T-Y when allowed to hang opened at the side hangs like this and was not something I would want to wear for any length of time.  I agree that the T-Y is far more like a metal cuirasse than mail or scale armor.  The other problem I have is why bother with Pteryges if the leather backing is supple and could be worn like a skirt as in middle eastern scale armors and mail.  We even have images of Greeks in something like this, see below.  Again, the covering on the shoulders and upper body in scales and the lower body without does not speak to a flexibility advantage to me, see below. Maybe the scale covered T-Y was not the same as other scale armors with a thin backing.

On another note, this image has always bothered me.  It is not a T-Y, yet its material is thick enough to be cut into Pteryges.  It is patterned in the manner we see many textile garments.  Surely this could be a "linothorax".  Which would mean that there was a linen armor, but it was not, or at least not always patterned as a T-Y.


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These things aren't photos. Trying to interpret the images as anything more than "looks like some kind of armour" is not a productive use of time.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Paullus Scipio said, "I am not going to list all the relevant archaeological reports.....you must do your own research.

You are not still claiming all those "leather" finds at Archontiko are accurate are you? I thought all those newspaper articles were proven incorrect?
Joe Balmos
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Yep. I'd love to see a dig report of Greco-Hellenistic leather armour. Apparently there was no organic material at all recovered from Archontiko. So we still have just as much physical evidence for leather armour as we have for linen - none.

Quote:The other problem I have is why bother with Pteryges if the leather backing is supple and could be worn like a skirt as in middle eastern scale armors and mail.
There is no point asking these questions. Why not ask why they used the tube and yoke style in the first place? Often the answer is something like: "because that is how we always have done it" or "because that is how our cultural superiors do it". Fashion has a far greater influence over armour design than many want to admit. Fashion rarely has much to do with efficiency or common sense.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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(09-11-2016, 03:13 AM)Dan Howard Wrote: There is no point asking these questions. Why not ask why they used the tube and yoke style in the first place? Often the answer is something like: "because that is how we always have done it" or "because that is how our cultural superiors do it". Fashion has a far greater influence over armour design than many want to admit. Fashion rarely has much to do with efficiency or common sense.

Actually, I think the answer to why the T-Y is fairly straight forward.  Greeks dressed in tubes that were pinned at the shoulder, often with the rear flap extending forward over the front then pinned with fibulae.  The damn women's peplos is even more exaggerated in this way, with long pins securing flaps over the front.  Thus if rendering a civilian garment as military by making the fabric thicker or altering the material, the cut is quite natural.  The yoke just needs to become more exaggerated over time.  I think this is why they called them Spolades, Stolidia, etc.  They were simply stolas, rendered in thick material, and not small, but brief.  Short, thick stola= stolidion.
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And they continued to wear this style long after there were better armours available. Fashion and tradition were more important to them than whether glue is better than quilting. Arguing that they would have worn linen because it provides better protection than hide completely misses the point.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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With that I agree completely. Fashion is far more important that usually credited- look at the trens Gustavus Aldolphus started getting men back in leather. Fashion goes beyond the cut of the armor though. I have no problem envisioning the average hoplite in leather spolas, while the richer men wear fancy eastern linen or expensive bronze.
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Hard to know where to post about this subject anymore, since this forum was revived with such vigor many threads have merged their topics.

I talked with Vengelis Chrisostomou, archeologist at Pella and Archontiko. There are no cuirass remains whatsoever. There is not one metal cuirass, despite the multitude of helmets and swords and shields. In most cases the preservation conditions are so bad that not even the bones have remained, despite the occasional organic finds, almost always in the form of metal oxides.

That said there have been some traces of fabric found, probably linen. It is hard to relate them with a cuirass however, because they have also found them outside of the body, so probably they belonged to clothes and the shroud. There have been many extremely thin pieces and some thicker, up to 2mm in thickness, and we are not talking about actual fabrics but mostly few pieces of yarn. No evidence of layers either. The commonest arrangement is about 10:8 yarns by square cm.

So there is nothing that can be derived by the finds from Archontiko. It seems that they were never buried with their cuirasses, or that they weren't wearing cuirasses at that time.

Most shields from Archaic Archintiko seem to have been embossed round shields of unknown size. The bosses are about 30-40 cm diameter. It seems to me that even when Hoplite shields are found those would be luxury imported items and not used in a phalanx. After all the aspis is a wonderful weapon, not heavy and multipurpose.

Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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I've been reading Nic Field's Early Rome Osprey Book, he mentions linothorax being made out of cartonnage, resin covered linen, similar to how Egyptian sarcophagus were made. One of the big arguments here in RAT against glued linen has always been that it wasn't common of the period for anything, but it looks like cartonnage was very popular among the Egyptians, who could have spread the armor everywhere.

Thoughts?
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(09-27-2016, 03:33 PM)Bryan Wrote: I've been reading Nic Field's Early Rome Osprey Book, he mentions linothorax being made out of cartonnage, resin covered linen, similar to how Egyptian sarcophagus were made. One of the big arguments here in RAT against glued linen has always been that it wasn't common of the period for anything, but it looks like cartonnage was very popular among the Egyptians, who could have spread the armor everywhere.

Thoughts?

Well the obvious one might be why arn't there more surviving pieces of armour made from glued linen in Egypt and elsewhere in the middle east?
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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(09-16-2016, 10:06 AM)Giannis K. Hoplite Wrote: Hard to know where to post about this subject anymore, since this forum was revived with such vigor many threads have merged their topics.

I talked with Vengelis Chrisostomou, archeologist at Pella and Archontiko. There are no cuirass remains whatsoever. There is not one metal cuirass, despite the multitude of helmets and swords and shields. In most cases the preservation conditions are so bad that not even the bones have remained, despite the occasional organic finds, almost always in the form of metal oxides.

That said there have been some traces of fabric found, probably linen. It is hard to relate them with a cuirass however, because they have also found them outside of the body, so probably they belonged to clothes and the shroud. There have been many extremely thin pieces and some thicker, up to 2mm in thickness, and we are not talking about actual fabrics but mostly few pieces of yarn. No evidence of layers either. The commonest arrangement is about 10:8 yarns by square cm.

So there is nothing that can be derived by the finds from Archontiko. It seems that they were never buried with their cuirasses, or that they weren't wearing cuirasses at that time.

Most shields from Archaic Archintiko seem to have been embossed round shields of unknown size. The bosses are about 30-40 cm diameter. It seems to me that even when Hoplite shields are found those would be luxury imported items and not used in a phalanx. After all the aspis is a wonderful weapon, not heavy and multipurpose.

Khairete
Giannis

Yes, this thread and the "closing the ranks" thread now overlap considerably.....

A huge 'Laudes' ( if we only still give them!) to Giannis for finally getting some hard information on the Archontiko finds and the tomb contents, which I for one have been looking for since October 2007 (see "Makedonian leather armour" thread )

There is nothing like being on the spot, and going straight to the 'horse's mouth' to obtain credible information, and I do envy you those opportunities, Giannis!


Vengelis Chrisostomou (sic) is presumably related to Pavlos and Anastasia Chrysostomou, the head excavators for many years? Perhaps their son?

I attach some photos by way of illustrating Giannis' post .One of them is a 'repeat' from the other thread, but I hope readers won't mind me re-posting it here for convenience....

The 'heart protector' is probably a shield, of the 'buckler' or 'target' type  that Giannis refers to, which is much more common in the graves than the imported 'aspides'. I doubt that the circular  objects 30-40 cm are simply shield-bosses, for that is far too large for such, and note that the two examples attached have smaller bosses within them. The typical 'buckler' is exactly in this size range, and I suspect this is what we have here ( anything over 30 cm diameter would also be too large to be a 'kardiophylax'/heart protector  - most are around 20cm diameter and have traces of the strapping arrangement, such as bronze hooks and loops). The Pella museum displays these objects as bucklers, in the left arm position.....


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"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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(09-27-2016, 08:00 PM)Crispianus Wrote:
(09-27-2016, 03:33 PM)Bryan Wrote: I've been reading Nic Field's Early Rome Osprey Book, he mentions linothorax being made out of cartonnage, resin covered linen, similar to how Egyptian sarcophagus were made. One of the big arguments here in RAT against glued linen has always been that it wasn't common of the period for anything, but it looks like cartonnage was very popular among the Egyptians, who could have spread the armor everywhere.

Thoughts?

Well the obvious one might be why arn't there more surviving pieces of armour made from glued linen in Egypt and elsewhere in the middle east?

How many linen, cloth, or leather linothorax style cuirasses have survived, period? 

Cartonnage sarcophagus were elaborately buried to be preserved, not just dropped in a hole in the ground and covered over with dirty, which is probably the only reason we know about them.
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For those wondering, "cartonnage" is a form of 'papier mache' used by embalmers to make masks or body cases for Egyptian mummies from around 900 BC down to Roman times. The exact materials altered over time, but it was made from linen or papyrus scraps mixed with plaster or stucco and then moulded into shape, exactly like 'papier mache'. When the 'papier mache' had dried it was painted or decorated with gold leaf. By Ptolemaic times, linen had gone out of use and waste scraps of 'papyrus' documents were almost universal. Preserved in the mix, these scraps have provided much written material for archaeologists and historians to ponder over.....

Some 'linophiles' have suggested that linen armour could be similarly made, but the suggested methods are as different as chalk and cheese.....


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"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Thanks Paul for the good words.
Yes, Vangelis is their son, I met him at Vergina in 2011 and we have kept contact since then.

At Pella the exhibition for Archontiko had many of these round shields, smaller or bigger but all of them were small shields, and just one remain of a Hoplite shield.

There is doubt however if these Warriors were actually Macedonian. At that time the Macedonians were just beginning to reach north and east as far as Pella and these warriors belonged probably to another tribe, probably the Paeonians. With the coming of the Macedonians, who started from a small area at the borders with Thessaly, they also moved North. Philip II conquered them, and Alexander campaigned again when they revolted. The Paeonians were of course Thracians.
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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So you have had this information since 2011, and not let us all know? Naughty Giannis! What other gems of knowledge have you uncovered, and not published ? Wink

To put things in perspective, over many years something like 1,000 graves have been excavated. Most have no grave goods at all. Of the small number that do, only a few have 'warrior panoplies' with the peculiar gold fittings, which were attached for funereal purposes. There are dozens of helmets, nearly all of 'Illyrian' type, which some now call 'Macedonian' because so many turn up in Macedon. This simple type of helmet evolved from the 'Kegel' type in the Peloponnese in the 8 C, and spread very widely. It was particularly popular in the Balkans, judging by finds, especially Macedon, where some of the many varieties of 'Illyrians' were invented. About 50 were found at Archontiko, but many were purloined by grave robbers, going back to antiquity.

One myth should be 'put to bed' regarding 'Illyrian' helmets. One often sees that the two characteristic ridges are described as "crest supports". This is untrue, for they are too widely spread apart, and extant examples with traces of crest fittings show that the crest was much narrower than the gap. ( a hook at the front and loop at the back). The original 'Illyrians' were made in two halves and the ridges were to protect the seam of the join, a weak point. Later the helmet was made in one piece, like 'Corinthians', but the traditional ridges were retained, and a mock seam was often inscribed!

It is interesting that the 6 C graves may be Paeonian rather than Macedonian. Paeonian coins ( which appeared from Philip II of Macedon's time) often show warriors with Greek-type helmets, but rarely body armour, ( even Kings, although Tube-and-yoke corselets are occasionally depicted) and also show them equipped with 'bucklers' ( see attached).

I believe only some six 'argive' aspides/shields have been found at Archontiko in total.

Bryan wrote:
"How many linen, cloth, or leather linothorax style cuirasses have survived, period? "

'Hundreds' of leather, or leather based Tube-and-Yoke corselets survive over a very wide area. The type was known from Gaul to the far East. Many excavated examples, or fragmentary remains come from the Balkans, Thrace and Scythia, many of obviously Greek manufacture and exported.
I have explained many times why there are no examples from central and southern Greece due to archaeological conditions and different burial customs.

There are however NO remains of linen corselets found, although linen corselets existed in Asia minor, Etruria and Lusitania according to our literary sources.........


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"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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