[split] Phalanx warfare: use of the spear

[Paul Bardunias]

"or more serious one - any chance you can find one where sauroter is clearly visible and is used overarm?"

This is one of the good things about Mathew's thesis.  Since he puts up the assertion that all images of overhand spears are those being thrown, even a single image that showed a spear being used overhand and either showing an obvious sauroter or being held near the back end to indicate it was not well designed for throwing overturns the whole theory.  This is a classic use of falsification that goes back to Karl Popper and is the heart of all modern science.  If I say all swans are white, if you find even a single black swan, then I am wrong and need to rethink my theory.

Gentlemen, I give you the black swan:

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"or more serious one - any chance you can find one where sauroter is clearly visible and is used overarm?"

This is one of the good things about Mathew's thesis.  Since he puts up the assertion that all images of overhand spears are those being thrown, even a single image that showed a spear being used overhand and either showing an obvious sauroter or being held near the back end to indicate it was not well designed for throwing overturns the whole theory.  This is a classic use of falsification that goes back to Karl Popper and is the heart of all modern science.  If I say all swans are white, if you find even a single black swan, then I am wrong and need to rethink my theory.

Gentlemen, I give you the black swan:

Also, you will note that the Greeks knew the problem with underhand grips with men behind you:

[JaM]

that's a very nice black swan

regarding the second one, yes, but that one is held in the middle, so of course it would interfere like that. I didn't suggested otherwise, my point was that middle grip is not something suitable for the close formation no matter the grip.

but back to swans. Personally, i don't believe in YES/NO or Black/White theory.. thing is, truth is sometimes in the middle, and both sides might be correct in different aspects you might miss, if you just dismiss it all by choosing one or another.  Must say that due to this discussion, I'm inclined to believe that spears were used both over and underarm,crouched or refused, based on what situation required. I would not dismiss either use, because both have their advantages, and even Thrand thrown slide could be easily the way how other cultures used their universal spear/javelins like lonchae or gallic heavy spears (which were quite point-heavy)

anyway as i said, i will definitely read your book when it comes out (any ETA?) and provide feedback.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul, the "friendly fire" image makes me think that the ancients too had a similar debate like ours. Obviously someone wanted to make the point "DON'T USE UNDERHAND GRIP"! And i'm sure his argument was based in real situations...

[Paul Bardunias]

  Must say that due to this discussion, I'm inclined to believe that spears were used both over and underarm,crouched or refused, based on what situation required.

A wise Spartan once said "How much better to make your enemies your friends".  I do not think any of us could argue with your position now.  I am sure all of those grips were used.  We see all of them on vases.  But they had their place and time.  I believe the time for underhand was not in the phalanx, but it would be stupid to think no hoplite in the long history of the phalanx ever did so.

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Paul, the "friendly fire" image makes me think that the ancients too had a similar debate like ours. Obviously someone wanted to make the point "DON'T USE UNDERHAND GRIP"! And i'm sure his argument was based in real situations...

It is a great image isn't it.  I could also see it as some badass with enemies coming at him from both sides thinking they have an easy kill, then he goes all Jackie Chan on them.  I think a lot of what we see on vases was influenced by that period after one taxis broke when as we are told in Laches, martial arts skill finally become useful.  If the artist are trying to depict single combat, only in those moments will they have seen it.  And yes, I see that as a much better time for underhand.

That said, the lack of armor might have been a means of conveying he was a man who stood behind in the file.

[Bryan]

Is this it? Is it over now? I feel like erecting a trophy atop this battlefield to honor the sacrifices made, hell of a battle this thread was...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Oh the joys of underhand grip in a phalanx!
   

At Marathon we used a varity of grips simultaneously.

[Paul Bardunias]

Oh the joys of underhand grip in a phalanx!


At Marathon we used a varity of grips simultaneously.

I will tell you my experience with that. I almost lost an eye when the fellow in front used that high underhand grip.  The only way I would let men around me hold the spear and feel remotely comfortably is overhand with the front angled down  Couched is a second I would be ok with if I did not have to get too close to the front rank.  Didier, the fellow with the yellow blazon, is obviously going to kill the man behind him.  That is the other thing about overhand, there is a seamless progression from throwing in the archaic period to only stabbing in the classical- center to rear balanced spears.  Underhand cannot be done with a grip in the center as you can see.

[JaM]

Is this it? Is it over now? I feel like erecting a trophy atop this battlefield to honor the sacrifices made, hell of a battle this thread was...

don't just jump out of joy just yet.. you got to Bagdad and are putting down Saddams statue, if you want a modern day's example..  there are tons of things unexplained in both theories..



Paul: can you post any detailed picture about your spear grip? (maybe taken from other side?) i tried it myself (not sure i have it right) but it was very awkward for me to hold the spear, as my  little finger got quite pressed by the shaft (and the shaft i have is just 0.6kg), not sure my finger bone would sustain any thrusting (was quite painful after a while..)  Palm of the hand seems to me much more stable, and pain-free..

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I'm sure they are all throwing their spears, simultaneously! They are also not fighting in a phalanx, it is three sets of single combat! We should surely dismiss the depiction...
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By the way this is the battle over the body of Patroclus, who fell in the heat of battle, and a fierce close combat broke over his body.
Notice the man deep on the right side, he is drawing his sword, possibly he opted for throwing his spear or it broke. It is not necessary that all the others will do the same.

This now is the Siphnian treasure, it shows dozens of hoplites, the hoplites are the Titans, typically shown as a phalanx in iconography. There is not one underhand grip by them.





But lets not forget the Nereid monument, constructed 120 years later, and shows hundreds of soldiers, among which some rare footage of phalanx fighting.

[Robert Vermaat]

Great discussion guys!

[JaM]

Giannis K. Hoplite: as i said before,  you cant take art too literally, because artists are not soldiers. These are not photographs, but representations made who know how many years after the battles were fought.. and its not that uncommon for artist to "go with the flow" and make his work based on works of those before him. Artists have tendency to idealize everything, so it would be not that uncommon for them to copy some "heroic" posture from other vases they saw, and use them on their own work.. they definitely saw more art paintings than they saw actual battles...

i can tell you that for example, while i'm working on 17.century themed combat game, a lot of art pictures are showing complete nonsense against all laws of physics.. look at any portrait about naval battles.. you will see a lot of ships sinking, burning etc, yet sinking was something that just didn't happened that very often to wooden ships, and definitely not during battle.. yet all portraits are full of it..  its artistic license, picture painted by somebody who painted it but never actually saw a naval battle in his life (and yes, there were some exceptions.. as always) and why did they paint it? because they heard about ships were lost, yet usually only after battle, when damaged ships got into some bad weather and couldnt return back to ports.. yet, for artist who is painting a naval battle, that is not interesting.. he wants to have ships sinking, because his enemies lost so many ships etc etc...

or another example - just look how many battle paintings from 18-19.century show men killing each other with bayonets.. Yet, if you actually look for details from those battles, or any other, you will find interesting thing - bayonet attacks practically never happened in open terrain, because one side always just rout and ran away... yet, did that stopped artists from painting exactly that? NOPE

[Athena Areias]

Could artists/stonecutters have served as Greek hoplites? Playwrights, poets and philosophers certainly did.

[JaM]

its very dangerous premise to assume that because there might be some that did serve as Hoplites, every single one of them (or even majority) did so as well... especially, when you don't even know names of these men, and cant actually link their work to them... world is not Black or White, it would be a huge mistake taking it as such.

For example, what i wrote before - Van Verde, English painter was on board of the flagship during 4-day battle and he was sketching what was happening in that battle.. yet, even then his portraits are not completely accurate.. and that didn't stopped other painters to copy his work afterwards and use similar scenes for their work..

[Paul Bardunias]

Paul: can you post any detailed picture about your spear grip? (maybe taken from other side?) i tried it myself (not sure i have it right) but it was very awkward for me to hold the spear, as my  little finger got quite pressed by the shaft (and the shaft i have is just 0.6kg), not sure my finger bone would sustain any thrusting (was quite painful after a while..)  Palm of the hand seems to me much more stable, and pain-free..

Ok, this is funny, and its my fault.  I uploaded the fgure but not the caption.  You cannot hold the dory extended outward in overhand.  It can only be extended as part of a moving strike.  So how do you take a picture of the spear's reach?  You curl your pinky under, and stand frozen like that for over a minute while your wife figures out how to take the pic.  So, no you do not really put your pinky under.  I have other pics where I had my son hold the tip while my arm was at full extension, but figured that might be more confusing.  You hold it on the palm, then pretend to throw it without letting go.

Will there be Polish winged hussars in your game?

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 as i said before,  you cant take art too literally, because artists are not soldiers. 

To this I would say you can't have it both ways.  You cannot use art to show that all overhand spears are thrown (which I have a feeling you would no longer support) and get upset when someone shows what is as drawn obviously 2 men in close combat- one in overhand the other with sword.

That said, I do believe that some of the overhand inages are thrown spears. Maybe even the Chigi.

[JaM]

ok, but you realize such movement should withstand the shock of the continuous hits? its not just about the length but also about being able to hit something reliably and with some force at that distance? Because must say, i had enough just after few hits, and with repeated hits, id rather held the spear with all fingers around it.

And regarding force, i don't have any means to measure anything, but overall i felt the strongest hits from underarm using same trajectory as with usual direct punch. Id say, you would probably connect more body weight and muscles strength into it, while with Overarm its more about throwing motion, which means you are counting on the momentum of the spear itself. (so technically, would be probably interesting to know what type of muscle tissue hoplites had developed the most... slow/strong one, or the fast/dynamic one..)

Overall, i think the best way how to verify the theory would be to have some volunteers, and drill them for a month or two so they would get into shape while using the panoply, and then have them

(no hussars this time, but who knows what future will bring)