Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms

[Steven James]

Jaroslav wrote:
One thing though - Class I are not the richest guys out there.. Equestrians are. Per your numbers, there were around 12000 men in that group.
 
And 1,200 men in 509 BC. The Roman fiscal qualifications for the five property classes of the Servian constitution as explained by Dionysius and Livy is detailed below:
 
                            Dionysius                       Livy
Class I               100,000 asses                100,000 asses
Class II                75,000 asses                  75,000 asses
Class III              50,000 asses                  50,000 asses
Class IV               25,000 asses                  25,000 asses
Class V                12,500 asses                  11,000 asses
 
Except for a difference of 1,500 asses for Class V, both historians are in agreement. However, of interest, Cicero and Aulus Gellius state the fiscal value of the proletarii amounted to 1,500 asses, and for the capite censi 375 asses. The 1,500 asses as given for the proletarii are the minimum fiscal requirements for the proletarii, as is the 375 asses for the capite censi (Class VI). With the additional 1,500 asses, Livy’s figure of 11,000 asses for Class V approximates to Dionysius’ figure of 12,500 asses. This means that Livy has deducted the 1,500 asses belonging to the capite censi (Class VI), from Class V, possibly because he believed they were part of the proletarii. The maximum for Class VI was 1,500 asses and the minimum was 375 asses.
 
In the same manner, Dionysius, Gaius and Livy identify Class I with those rated at 100,000 asses or more, while Pliny, Festus and Aulus Gellius give the wealth of Class I at 125,000 asses. Unfortunately, some modern historians see this as a contradiction when in fact there is none. Pliny, Festus and Aulus Gellius are listing the maximum fiscal requirements for Class I, while Dionysius, Gaius and Livy are listing the minimum fiscal requirements for Class I.
 
Class I      125,000 asses to 100,000 asses
Class II     100,000 asses to 75,000 asses
Class III     75,000 asses to 50,000 asses
Class IV     50,000 asses to 25,000 asses
Class V       25,000 asses to 1,500 asses
Class VI       1,500 asses to 375 asses
 
With the equestrians belonging to Class I, I have no idea if they are the riches men in Class I, but there would be no reason to assume they were not the richest of Class I.
 
Jaroslav wrote:
Class I to me looks more like today's Upper Middle class of people - well suited with good job, not millionaires but practically a backbone of a society and economy.. In Roman times these would be the families with good prosperous farms.. practically guys who could lose the most if something went wrong and enemies would plunder the countryside, so makes sense they would get involved a lot more, than those who have nothing to lose.. which would explain why Class I is as big as Class II,III and IV combined.
 
If you look at my paper on the Roman tribes, each of the ten sections of a century represented one planet in the Pythagorean cosmos. Yep that is correct, the Pythagorean cosmos had 10 planets, because they had a planet called the counter-earth. Aristotle claimed the Pythagoreans invented the counter-earth in order for the Pythagorean cosmos to conform to the Pythagorean religion of numbers:
 
“If any of the phenomena of the heaven showed any disagreement with the sequence in numbers, they made the necessary addition themselves, and tried to fill up any gap, in order to make their system as a whole agree with the numbers. Thus, considering the number ten to be a perfect number, and seeing the number of the moving spheres shown by observation to be nine only…they straightway added to them in their doctrine of the counter-earth, which they supposed to move counter to the earth and so to be invisible to the inhabitants of the earth.”
 
The biggest shake up of the Pythagorean system was when the Romans removed the counter earth from the system, when it was found the counter earth did not exist. This had a major impact on the legion and is the reason why there is only 600 triarii. This may come as a bit of a surprise, but the tribal century was reduced to 90 men, and the loss occurred with the triarii. So for awhile, when needed, the Romans levied additional triarii from the proletarii. The evidence I have is the Romans learnt about the non existence of the counter-earth from the Carthaginians, something I find hilarious.

[JaM]

wait, this is getting more and more confusing.. were or were not Equestrian class separate from Class I? from what i read, they were separate, and on each assembly 1200 were selected to serve as Equites (300 per legion with 4 legions drafted)

If they are same class, then Class I gets bigger  = 63000+12600 = 75600..


so technically, when Polybius sais that only those with wealth greater than 10000 drachame used mail, he meant Class I. Yet that class was the biggest part of the legion, which again, cannot translate into Class I = Triarii assumption, because Triarii were actually the smallest part of the legion.

[Steven James]

Jaroslav wrote:
wait, this is getting more and more confusing.. were or were not Equestrian class separate from Class I? from what i read, they were separate, and on each assembly 1200 were selected to serve as Equites (300 per legion with 4 legions drafted)
 
The equestrian are part of Class I, and in relation to the five elements represent “heaven.” Pythagoras believed that the building blocks of nature itself consisted of five elements: heaven, fire, air, earth, and water, all formed into five mathematical solid shapes so that; “the globe of the universe was produced by the dodecahedron, the fire by the tetrahedron, the air by the octahedron, the earth was produced by the cube and the water by the Icosahedron.”
 
In total the five elements amounted to 14,400 degrees.
 
Heaven 6480
Fire 720
Air 1440
Earth 2160
Water 3600
Total 14400
 
Just like the Servian constitution, the element heaven is the largest in number. Class I represents heaven, Class II to fire, and the rest are distributed among Classes III to VI. Now the 35 tribes for 228 BC number 252,000 men, which equates to each tribe having a total of 7,200 men (both iuniores and seniores). Notice this figure is half of the total of 14,400 degrees. Class I being the largest number represents “heaven” so in 225 BC, the five elements look like this:
 
Heaven    3240
Fire            360
Air              720
Earth        1080
Water       1800
Total        7200
 
In 225 BC, Rome is at the half way point of the Pythagorean system. The five elements are the heart beat of the whole Roman system, it is the mathematical generator or the controlling element.
 
Jaroslav wrote:
If they are same class, then Class I gets bigger = 63000+12600 = 75600..so technically, when Polybius sais that only those with wealth greater than 10000 drachame used mail, he meant Class I. Yet that class was the biggest part of the legion, which again, cannot translate into Class I = Triarii assumption, because Triarii were actually the smallest part of the legion.
 
Both the principes and the triarii belong to Class I. I’ve got to much evidence for this. So this means the triarii and principes are armed the same and your theory of the hastati being armed in the same manner just might be on shaky ground.

[JaM]

you mean besides the actual sentence from Polybius who states they were equipped the same except for Triarii having a spear? that's a direct evidence right there..

[Steven James]

you mean besides the actual sentence from Polybius who states they were equipped the same except for Triarii having a spear?   that's a direct evidence right there..

Woops, body armour that is.

Nathan's reading "Zodiac and Roman Camp Construction." This will be interesting.

[JaM]

and lets not forget military aspect.. what would be the point exactly EXCLUDING your best equipped (and by some ) most experienced men from battle, and leave your young guys bleed in battle??? Because that's exactly how Triarii were used in battle.. they were waiting in the back, letting others fight..

What a contrast to older deployment with Class I in a front row... practically a total reverse... except, even back then, when they fought in hoplite phalanx, it would make no sense putting your old guys (your Class I) in a front row, because they have the least amount of stamina.. while Greeks actually put their best men in the front row, as those were the guys deciding the outcome of the battle..

So no, i have a hard time believing that Romans would introduce a new system, where rich Class I (the largest per your numbers) would only send 600 men as Triarii + 300 as Equites, and would make remaining men of classes below (who again per your numbers, were together less numerous than Class I+Cavalry) to fight in a front rank..


To me, Class I is the group the most motivated to defend the Rome, because they are the ones who would lose the most... so they would be the main force behind the legion... And members of those families, would not enlist all the same year, every year, but would most likely take turns, so there is still some male population tending the farms.. which also means that members who went to war, would use whatever equipment that family actually had, because their prime interest is to see their sons return from war.

[Nathan Ross]

Nathan's reading "Zodiac and Roman Camp Construction." This will be interesting.

You are unusually well informed, Mr Bond!

Just idle curiosity - I was wondering what the source might be for the figure of 252,000 men in the 35 tribes in 228BC - I did a quick search and it led me to your own paper.

But that's a digression from your debate here...

[Steven James]

Jaroslav wrote:
So no, i have a hard time believing that Romans would introduce a new system, where rich Class I (the largest per your numbers) would only send 600 men as Triarii + 300 as Equites, and would make remaining men of classes below (who again per your numbers, were together less numerous than Class I+Cavalry) to fight in a front rank..
 
In a previous post I said Class I was made up of both the principes and triarii. Did you miss that? Back in the 80’s while working for the government film unit, we filmed operations with the US army and the Australian army, which covered a sea borne landing of the marines. The first wave that came ashore were young kids, the second the same. The first two waves of kids merged into the jungle, took up positions and started smoking dope. But the third wave was older, and appeared better troops by their professional attitude, and they had the look of we mean business.
 
 

---

Nathan wrote:
Just idle curiosity - I was wondering what the source might be for the figure of 252,000 men in the 35 tribes in 228BC - I did a quick search and it led me to your own paper.
 
I have another source that bears the mathematical trademark found in Polybius. However, this is well outside Polybius’ time frame of writing. The intensity of this mathematical trademark is most profuse for the Second Punic War, and I am starting to wonder if Fabius Pictor is the source. However, the pattern pops up now and again to 172 BC, so I imagine Fabius did not live that long. What I am doing now, is just writing the ancient authors name and then “or his source.” So for example, if the historian is Livy, it will read Livy or his source(s).

[JaM]

Sorry, unless you can post a direct historical sources which would back your theory, i'd rather believe what Polybius wrote. And he did not mentions any stars and stripes, horoscopes and stuff in his work on Roman army.. at least when i read the pages with the english translations of those texts i didnt see any..


plus, it doesnt even add up... Per you now, Principes and Triarii are Class I, yet in Legion, we have 1200 Principes, 600 Triarii  and 300 Equites. Your own numbers tell that Class I is as big as remaining classes together...  yet, Hastati are just 1200 men strong... while Velites are another 1200 men strong group and you said they are not from Class II,III or IV, but from Proletarii..


oh, and btw, im 39 years old (this month). A lot of my friends sometimes go play a football on the field. Sometimes they play against younger guys, but as they are getting older, more and more they just refuse such proposals, because they just dont like losing to 16-17 (or a bit older) years old.. they just cant run fast enough, and long enough as those teenagers..

Melee combat is very fatiguing. Of course you can have individuals who train every day, and they might have a bettter condition than some 18years old.. but it would be by no means a standard in a whole population.. and same was true in Roman society... Legionaries before Marius were not military professionals.. they were farmers, therefore their constitution would be impacted by the farming.

[Steven James]

Jaroslav wrote:
Sorry, unless you can post a direct historical sources which would back your theory, i'd rather believe what Polybius wrote. And he did not mentions any stars and stripes, horoscopes and stuff in his work on Roman army.. at least when i read the pages with the english translations of those texts i didnt see any..
 
I’ve had this before, if Polybius does not tell us it cannot be true. That is one way to limit your understanding of the Roman army. Censorinus talks a lot about the Roman horoscopes of Pythagoras, but unfortunately, Censorinus is not Polybius, so therefore dismissed. Try casting your net further afield and you might learn something. Do what I started back in the 80’s a make a data base of all the military maths in the primary sources and group them into period brackets of 50 years. See if you can recognise any mathematical patterns, see what is divisible by what and what interlocks with what. You will be surprised.
 
Jaroslav wrote:
plus, it doesnt even add up... Per you now, Principes and Triarii are Class I, yet in Legion, we have 1200 Principes, 600 Triarii  and 300 Equites. Your own numbers tell that Class I is as big as remaining classes together...yet, Hastati are just 1200 men strong... while Velites are another 1200 men strong group and you said they are not from Class II,III or IV, but from Proletarii
 
Well I did write this in a previous email. “Following Polybius that a legion consisted of four classes, by adding up Classes I to IV in the 35 tribes, the result is 126,000 men. By dividing the 126,000 men of Classes I to IV by 35 tribes, the result is 3,600 men per tribe. This is the core size of the legion. If I want an emergency legion, then I have 46,200 iuniores of Class V (proletarii or velites) to call up, which when divided by the 35 tribes gives the Romans an additional reserve of 1,320 men to add to the legion. However, if I only call up 1,200 men, then the legion increases to 4,800 men.”
 
Ok, you have now based my research as horoscopes, I get tired of the putdowns , so let’s agree to disagree and finish the discussion. This way I will have more time to concentrate on the compilation of the all the military numbers I have for the Social War and try and work out what is what.

[JaM]

I’ve had this before, if Polybius does not tell us it cannot be true.

Actually, other way around... Polybius did tell us that they were equipped the same... and the only difference was a spear for Triarii..

At Rome the tribunes, after the ceremony of the oath is finished, command all the legions to return without arms upon a certain day, and then dismiss them. And when they are met together again at the appointed time, those that are youngest, and of the lowest condition, are set apart for the light-armed troops. From the next above these in age are selected the hastati; from those that are in full strength and vigor, the principes; and the oldest of all that are enrolled are the triarii. For every legion is composed of all these different bodies; different in name, in age, and in the manner in which they are armed. This division is so adjusted that the triarii amount to six hundred men; the principes are twelve hundred; the hastati an equal number; and all the rest light-armed. If a legion consist of more than four thousand men, the several bodies are increased in due proportion; except only that the number of the triarii always remains the same.

and:
 
The next in age, who are called the hastati, are ordered to furnish themselves with a complete suit of armour. This among the Romans consists in the first place of a shield of a convex surface; tile breadth of which is two feet and shelf; and the length four feet, or four feet and a palm of those of the largest size. It is composed of two planks, glued together, and covered first with linen, and afterwards with calves' skin. The extreme edges of it, both above and below, are guarded with plates of iron, as well to secure It against the strokes of swords, as that it may be rested also upon the ground without receiving any injury to the surface is fitted likewise a shell of iron; which serves to turn aside the more violent strokes of stones, or spears, or any other ponderous weapon. After tile shield comes the sword, which is carried upon the right thigh, and is called the Spanish sword. It is formed not only to push with at the point; but to make a falling stroke with either edge, and with singular effect; for the blade is remarkably strong and firm. To these arms are added two piles or javelins; a helmet made of brass; and boots for the legs. The piles are of two sorts; the one large, the other slender. Of the former those that are round have the breadth of a palm in their diameter; and those that are square the breadth of a palm 'likewise is a side. The more slender, which are carried with the other, resemble a common javelin of a moderate size. In both sorts, the wooden part is of the same length likewise, and turned outwards at the point, in the form of a double hook, is fastened to the wood with so great care and foresight, being carried upwards to the very middle of it, and transfixed with many close-set rivets, that it is sooner broken in use than loosened; though in the part in which it is joined to the wood, it is not less than a finger and a half in thickness. Upon the . helmet is worn an ornament of three upright feathers, either red or black, of about a cubit in height; which being fixed upon the very top of the head, and added to their other arms, make the troops seem td be of double size, and gives them an appearance which is both beautiful and terrible. Beside these arms, the soldiers in general place also upon their breasts a square plate of brass, of the measure of a span on either side, which is called the guard of the heart. But all those who are rated at more than ten thousand drachmae cover their breasts with a coat of  mail. The principes and the triarii are armed in the same manner likewise as the hastati; except only that the triarii carry pikes instead of javelins.

[Polybius, "The Military Institutions of the Romans," in The Library of Original Sources, Oliver J. Thatcher, ed. (Milwaukee, WI: University Extension Co., 1901), pp. 172-186]

Ok, you have now based my research as horoscopes, I get tired of the putdowns , so let’s agree to disagree and finish the discussion. This way I will have more time to concentrate on the compilation of the all the military numbers I have for the Social War and try and work out what is what.

Sorry, but it seems to me a bit far fetched.. limiting the number of men in class based on planets and stuff... that's actually sounds very strange... How exactly would number of planets involve how many sons certain family has? Census is a count of all male population which is eligible for military service...

same source as above says:

When the enrollments are to be made the consuls give notice before to the people of a certain day, upon which all the Romans that are of sufficient age are required to attend.

[Bryan]

oh, and btw, im 39 years old (this month). A lot of my friends sometimes go play a football on the field. Sometimes they play against younger guys, but as they are getting older, more and more they just refuse such proposals, because they just dont like losing to 16-17 (or a bit older) years old.. they just cant run fast enough, and long enough as those teenagers..

Melee combat is very fatiguing. Of course you can have individuals who train every day, and they might have a bettter condition than some 18years old.. but it would be by no means a standard in a whole population.. and same was true in Roman society... Legionaries before Marius were not military professionals.. they were farmers, therefore their constitution would be impacted by the farming.

Caesar became the Proconsul of Gaul in 58 BC, took command of a pre-existing consular army of four legions, which included Legio X. So at the latest, those legions were raised in 59 BC, but they could have been raised earlier. The battle of Munda occurred in 45 BC, at least fourteen years later. So the youngest seventeen year old recruits in Legio X when it was enlisted would have been at youngest thirty one years old. Meanwhile centurions would have been even older in 59 BC, men like Scaeva, Crastinus, and others within the army we clearly not young men. And considering how well they did in their later career, and how well the even older centurions are known to have performed, I don't think age really affected their fighting abilities negatively. Combat wasn't a sprint, it was more a marathon, and older people still do quite well with them, especially those who of the ancient world who weren't weakened by soft living like us modern couch potato types (me included). 

There was a article in one of the recent Ancient Warfare Magazine, IX.5,  about the Macedonian Silver Shields, "The Silver Shields after Alexander - Old Men's War". Good article, you should read it, it talks about the effectiveness of old soldiers (to include those over 60 years old still fighting in the front lines). I really enjoyed this print from the article:

[Nathan Ross]

Of course you can have individuals who train every day, and they might have a bettter condition than some 18years old.. but it would be by no means a standard in a whole population..

I believe it's generally the case that younger men (18-25 or so) are faster and stronger in short bursts, while older men have greater stamina - peak physical endurance is supposedly 25-35 or so, and muscle only begins to decline markedly after 45; that's why most sprinters are younger, and marathon runners and long-distance cyclists tend to be in their 30s...

With a simple, healthy diet and plenty of exercise, men of the ancient world were possibly far fitter and stronger overall than the average middle-aged man of today (we spend far too long sitting at computers...!) [Cross-posed with Bryan on this point, I notice!]

So while the velites and hastati would have had the speed and agility, the older men would have had the endurance - which is exactly what you need when res ad triarios venit...

Incidentally, I came across this interesting old post by Kate Gilliver that suggests (following one Walbank) that the hastati were originally also armed with the hasta, and the principes were the front line fighters!

[JaM]

Bryan, Nathan:

Thing is, this whole debate needs to be divided to preMarian and post Marian legionaries.. Legionaries in the time of Caesar, were military professionals.. they were no longer militias joining for a short campaign, but were men who signed a contract to serve for a long period of time. (plus, my original intent was to find out how many of them could actually have high/good quality armor)

My whole point was concerning those Pre-Marian Militia/levy men, who were not professional soldiers, but ordinary farmers who spent their lives working in the field, and occasionally went to war to fulfill their commitment to the state. Physical constitution of a farmer usually deteriorates towards one end - you end up with a bad back.. something that would eventually even prevent from using javelins - another reason why Triarii didnt had them perhaps?

Of course Caesarean veterans were a different sort, had much more endurance etc.. for example in 18.century, it was common that if a recruit survived first 6 months on campaign, he would most likely survive anything (except a bullet or a sword of course) but the survival rate was quite bad btw, he got accustomed to conditions of being always on the move, having scarce food,built his immunity towards germs etc etc...  Yet, things like this would be quite different for a Militia, which only participated on a campaign for a short period of time, and even if some of them had to stay for longer, eventually they returned to their farm and didn't enlisted next year.

Its a well known fact for example that if you stop excercise, you will lose most of your build up strength just after 2 weeks without training. Then it will take almost 8 weeks of training to return back to previous shape.. human physiology can adapt relatively quickly to the better, but not as quickly for the bad..

Incidentally, I came across this interesting old post by Kate Gilliver that suggests (following one Walbank) that the hastati were originally also armed with the hasta, and the principes were the front line fighters!

Actually, i think name Hastati came from a throwing Hasta, not the thrusting one.. if I recall correctly it was Ennius who wrote poem that""Hastati spargunt hastas, fit ferreus imber" - Hastati hurl hastae, making a shower of iron" which kinda suggest that for Romans, they could call even a javelin Hasta... maybe before they got Pilum, they could have used some heavier Javelins that would be similar to thrusting Hasta.

do i recall it right, Ennius was a legionarii during first Punnic War?

[Bryan]

Professional soldiering was not a Pre-Marian/Post-Marian reform. I've already demonstrated that Marius had nothing at all to do with long standing armies. Of the armies he commanded as consul, two were disbanded immediately after the conflict ended (Jugurthine War and Cimbri War) and the other (from the Social War) was kept under the standards only because of the impending threat of the Civil War between the Optimates and Populares; Sulla and Gn. Pomp. Strabo refused to disband their legions. Marius had nothing at all to do with long standing legions, it happened long after he died, likely one of Sulla's reforms (as one of his laws allowed for Pro-Consul governors to remain longer in their provinces, instead of being replaced yearly, it suggests that legions were also not replaced quickly). Also, during Sulla' Civil War, his army probably led the precedence for long standing service, raised during the Social War they spent over ten years under the standards before being discharged and given land in Italy and the East. Pompeius Magnus continued the tradition, his legions were never disbanded, they remained in service until he was elected Consul with Crassus, at which time he discharged them and gave them large land grants in the East and in Spain. By that point service in the legions implied longer than normal service and a likely land grant at the end, but only if the general was popular and powerful enough to force the Senate to abide an Agrarian Law, which many were not successful at.

Bad back? Have you met many farmers? I have, the old guys are exceptionally strong. They even have a name for it, farm strong, and old man strength. These guys can do physical feets of strength and endurance that simply embarrass young men, and they do it with no sweat. I know, because I've seen it a whole lot growing up. You don't lose most of your strength after 2 weeks. LOL, that's laughably wrong. You really need to google the definition of fact.

Ennius was writing about the time period of the 2nd Punic War, which is the conflict he served in.