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What would be the standard vexillation size?
#1
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Check title. Also were specific cohorts provided?
James Ajiduah
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#2
(02-03-2016, 01:54 AM)LonginusXXI Wrote: Check title. Also were specific cohorts provided?

What time period? The Vexillation had no standard size until possibly the 4th century, and then it quickly fell out of use altogether.

In fact we have no idea how big most principate Vexillationes were, and the few we do know are all over the place.

Luke Coello's Unit Sizes in the Late Roman Army covers Principate Vexillationes. Google it, should be easy to find, like first result, and free to read/DL.
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#3
(02-03-2016, 02:30 AM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote:
(02-03-2016, 01:54 AM)LonginusXXI Wrote: Check title. Also were specific cohorts provided?

What time period? The Vexillation had no standard size until possibly the 4th century, and then it quickly fell out of use altogether.

In fact we have no idea how big most principate Vexillationes were, and the few we do know are all over the place.

Luke Coello's Unit Sizes in the Late Roman Army covers Principate Vexillationes. Google it, should be easy to find, like first result, and free to read/DL.

I am talking 1st century A.D.
James Ajiduah
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#4
(02-04-2016, 04:07 PM)LonginusXXI Wrote: I am talking 1st century A.D.

No standard size. Not in the 1st century.

Every group of soldiers between 20 and 2000+ men could be a vexillatio led by a kind of praepositus. The term vexillatio could be used for any kind of detachement of any purpose.

I guess you are asking for the vexillatio a Legatus Augusti pro Praetore and commander of an exercitus provinciae usually sent to the emperors campaigning army. The answer is pretty simple: As many units as the emperor ordered to send. Furthermore, in the 1st century the romans prefered to move entire legions plus auxilia and not parts of legions plus auxilia.
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas
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#5
There is a theory about the development and size of the late roman legio comitatensis. According to this theory a single legion usually provided 2 legionary cohorts to the army which marched from the province to the emperors army. This practice became usual in the 2nd century AD. And in the 3rd century these detachements often never came back. So they became independent units of about 1000 men commanded by a tribune as a legio in the central field army. But, this is just a theory and there is not that much evidence to proof it.

It is also not clear, which cohorts were usually detached. Perhaps even a mix of soldiers from many cohorts. But it is rather unlikely, that a legion detached its complete 1st cohort, because this cohort is the core of a legion and some centurions like the princeps fullfilled an important role in the legions administration. But you may find primipili as praepositi of vexillationes. Primipili were often used for important special tasks.

You may also read this thread about late roman unit sizes:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/thread-23660.html
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas
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#6
I mentioned Coello because he covers a vast number of Principate sources on unit sizes from the 1st and 2nd and 3rd centuries AD.
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#7
I would caution using Coello too extensively for evidence of unit sizes as he himself gave that very caveat, using as he did surviving records for units in Egypt etc which were frontier units and possibly had different compositions to field army units. His work is also now becoming out of date and since it was written new advances have been made in relation to unit Roman unit sizes.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#8
True, but I'm saying he lists a lot of primary sources that give the sizes of specific regiments.
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#9
In regard to my research concerning the Roman legion and its links to Pythagorean doctrines, I have found via the data in the primary sources that the size of a vexillation is standardized for all periods. In the 400 BC period it is termed a cohort by Dionysius and Livy. A vexillation is made up of two cohorts, therefore, there are five vexillations to a legion. The number five was an important Pythagorean number. As a consular army originally had only two legions and was designed this way based on Pythagorean pairing, a consular army formed ten vexillations, which conforms to the number ten being the perfect Pythagorean number (one of many perfect numbers). Confused
 
Papyrus records believed to belong to the field army of Maximian’s expedition of 298 AD describe a vexillation consisting of two cohorts. (CIL (08 08440 Sitifis), AE 1972 (00710 Mauretania Caesariensis Sitifis)

Hope that helps.

 
Steven
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#10
(02-12-2016, 07:03 AM)antiochus Wrote: Papyrus records believed to belong to the field army of Maximian’s expedition of 298 AD describe a vexillation consisting of two cohorts. (CIL (08 08440 Sitifis), AE 1972 (00710 Mauretania Caesariensis Sitifis)

Those two are inscriptions, not papyri - one a tombstone, the other a dedication to an altar of Mithras. The papyri you're thinking of are probably the ones from Egypt, and seem to relate to Galerius's expedition of 293; they mention detachments of paired legions, each detachment commanded by a praepositus. Possibly the detachments consisted on a cohort from each legion, but we don't know that. It might be important that these references date from the period of the tetrarchic army, which may have operated slightly differently to earlier models.

There is very little evidence for the size of vexillations under the Principiate. This might mean that vexillations were a standard size, and so needed no further description, or that they were of any size and the word alone conveyed nothing.

Hadrian, in his speech to the men of III Augusta at Lambaesis, mentions a single cohort of the legion detached to Africa Proconsularis, and another detachment sent to reinforce a different third legion: the latter is specifically stated as comprising a single cohort and four men from each of the other centuries of the legion (ILS 2487)

Meanwhile, the inscription to Pontius Sabinus (CIL 10, 5829) mentions 'vexillations comprising three thousand men of the legions VII Gemina, VIII Augusta and XXII Primigenia [sent] on the expedition to Britain'. This might mean that each legion contributed a thousand men, which would suggest two cohorts each. However, we should bear in mind the Hadrianic evidence above, and consider that vexillations may have been put together in different ways, or have consisted of differing numbers.

This paper might be interesting:

Tully - Did Centurions Lead Detachments of their Legions in Wartime?
Nathan Ross
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#11
Hello Nathan. I would not dispute a vexillation consisting of differing numbers. The term vexillation can also be used in a general way and without consistency of the numbers of men involved. For some years I have been mapping the numbers in the primary sources and there is a constant pattern from the republic to 410 AD showing a vexillation had a standard size. In some time frames there is no numbers, but in a later period there is information (numbers) indicating full strength vexillations. Your (CIL 10, 5829) is one such example that shows the pattern continues Also the number of men can vary depending on who is omitted. For example a vexillation will be reduced in numbers if half the pilani are left behind to garrison the camp or all the pilani are left behind. Before Marius, Pliny tells us a legion had five standards, the eagle, the wolf, the minotaur, the horse and the wild boar. As the eagle is connected with the first cohort, I believe Pliny is describing the standards of the five vexillations in their order of seniority, which is:
 
The eagle standard           1st Vexillation
The wolf standard.       ....2nd Vexillation
The minotuar standard.....3rd Vexillation
The horse standard...     ..4th Vexillation
The wild boar standard.....5th Vexillation

Steven
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#12
(02-12-2016, 04:20 PM)antiochus Wrote: The eagle standard           1st Vexillation
The wolf standard.       ....2nd Vexillation
The minotuar standard.....3rd Vexillation
The horse standard...     ..4th Vexillation
The wild boar standard.....5th Vexillation

Surprising input Antiochus. You are calling the roots of the term vexillatio into play.

So you are saying, that the mid-republican legion (and earlier) was not just organized in 30 manipuli, but also in 5 vexillationes according to the the 5 old standards? This would make sense, if every manipulus also belonged to a certain standard. After the marian reforms manipuli and the old standards became meaningless. Nevertheless, a lot of the old terms survived. Romans have been very traditional, especially if it comes to legions. So afterwards "vexillatio" stayed to be the term for 1/5 of a legion, which were now 2 cohorts. 

On the other side, vexillatio became also a general term. Every detachment from 20 to 2000 men could be a vexillatio. But the traditional size was still 1/5th of a legion. Until the former vexillationes became legiones comitatenses of 1000 men, and the term vexillatio was now used for a cavalry unit in late empire.

Interesting approach. I am just not sure, that we got enough evidence for your theory.
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas
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#13
Frank wrote:
Surprising input Antiochus. You are calling the roots of the term vexillatio into play.

Yeah, I fight dirty.

Frank wrote:
Romans have been very traditional, especially if it comes to legions.

All Roman military traditions are formulistic, that is they are governed by some very sacred doctrines.

Frank wrote:
On the other side, vexillatio became also a general term. Every detachment from 20 to 2000 men could be a vexillatio.

Don’t you hate those lazy ancient historians.

Frank wrote:
But the traditional size was still 1/5th of a legion.

That’s my findings.

Frank wrote:
Until the former vexillationes became legiones comitatenses of 1000 men, and the term vexillatio was now used for a cavalry unit in late empire.

The 1000 men is a theory and also another topic.

Frank wrote:
Interesting approach. I am just not sure, that we got enough evidence for your theory.

It depends on where you are looking. I found to understand the Roman legion one has to investigate all periods. Only then does it become obvious that the Roman legion organisation from Tarquinius Superbus to the fall of Rome is following the same organisational principals, so yes, there is a standardised continuity throughout the ages. As Scully say’s “the truth is out there.”

Polybius reports that the 1/5 of the allied infantry was detached to serve as extraordinarii. Here again can be found the principal of the 1/5 in relation to military organisation. So if two allied legions in a consular army combined amounted to 10 vexillations, then two allied vexillations formed the extraordinarii. This would amount to each of the two allied legions providing one vexillation.

With ten squadrons allocated to a legion, each vexillation would also have two squadrons of cavalry. However, during the principate, with 16 squadrons in an ala, this concept changed, but the infantry were still divided into five vexillations.

Steven
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#14
For the year 54 AD, Tacitus (Annals 14 26) mentions that a Roman garrison consisted of 1,000 legionaries, three allied cohorts, and two squadrons of cavalry.
 
Tacitus (The Annals 15 10) reports that the Roman commander Corbulo ordered 1,000 men from each of his three legions to be in instant readiness.
 
Suetonius (Life of Vespasian 6 2) writes that 2,000 soldiers were taken from three legions stationed in Moesia and sent to help the Roman commander Otho. In this incident it could be that men were taken from the three legions to form two vexillations each of 1,000 men.
 
The inscription to Pontius Sabinus (CIL 10, 5829) mentions vexillations sent on an expedition to Britain amounting to three thousand men taken from three legions VII Gemina, VIII Augusta and XXII Primigenia.
 
A mathematical pattern in divisions of 1,000 men emerges.
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#15
(02-14-2016, 01:35 AM)Steven James Wrote: A mathematical pattern in divisions of 1,000 men emerges.

Scheuerbrandt analyzed the roman army extensively in his dissertation "Exercitus". He found, that the romans usually thought in figures like 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000, 16.000 and 32.000 men, according to the so called "greek-tacticians". Not in 1 legion, 2 legions, ... plus auxilia. 500 is a known standard size (cohort, ala). Vespasian established smaller armies (vexillationes?) of 2000 men (1000 heavy infantry, 500 light infantry, 500 cavalry) in order to pacify the several regions of Iudaea finally. At the limes in Germania Scheuerbrandt identified sections secured by 2000 men, again composed of multiple units commanded by a tribunus. So, yes 1000 and 2000 was a usual size for roman armies and often used by commanders.
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