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Leather used in Seggys.
#1
Hi all,
I have only just thought of this, due to a repair.....again.
Did anyone analyse the Corbridge Hoard's leather connectors?
If so, was it Goat or Cow?. Logic dictates Goat, as everything else was Goat.
If it was Goat, has anyone done their Seggys in Goat?
I am very interested to know.
Kevin
Kevin
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#2
I am bumping this one on again as im still looking for the info.
Cow or Goat leather?
Someone within this very knowledgeable community must know something?
Regards,
Kevin
Kevin
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#3
Hi Kevin,

I'd expect cow, but don't really know.

Quote:Logic dictates Goat, as everything else was Goat.

Not sure what you mean by that ... everything else from Corbridge?
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#4
Here's the link to the online report, the leather remains are probably mineralized, although it doesn't seem to mention it, or the type of leather, I would suggest given that goatskin is usually quite a light leather a more robust flexible calf or cow was used ....: it may simply be that they used whatever was available new or recycled ......

http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arch...no=1089070

Had a quick search through the monograph but didn't come up with anything resembling goat, cow, calf or bovine perhaps you'll have better luck.....



.
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#5
I have not checked the links yet, this will happen when my heads in gear so to speak. Thanks Ivor.

@ Martin, sorry I was not fully explanatory, when I said Goat, as Goat was used for Tents , Shield covers, Saddle covers, confirmed......I would assume that this was used in Seggies.
Was it used in the Segmented Armour or not?
Was it stronger than cow leather?
Should I get out drinking Beer more?............LOL#
Kevin
Kevin
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#6
Quote:the leather remains are probably mineralized, although it doesn't seem to mention it, or the type of leather
As the report mentions (p.6), all of the Hoard's organic components were mineralised. Whilst it was possible to determine species from the structure of wood, it was not possible with the leather. Moreover, more generally, internal leathers for segmental cuirasses and armguards are only ever preserved in mineralising and not anaerobic conditions, leading to the conclusion that tanned leather was most likely not used (the Carlisle Millennium site preserved tanned leathers but not the internal leathers on the armguards). The matter is discussed in this thread.

Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#7
Did anyone ever try using fish oil (or garum) to soak untanned cow hide? I've read the linked topic and saw no mention of it.
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#8
Quote:
Crispianus post=370326 Wrote:the leather remains are probably mineralized, although it doesn't seem to mention it, or the type of leather
As the report mentions (p.6), all of the Hoard's organic components were mineralised. Whilst it was possible to determine species from the structure of wood, it was not possible with the leather. Moreover, more generally, internal leathers for segmental cuirasses and armguards are only ever preserved in mineralising and not anaerobic conditions, leading to the conclusion that tanned leather was most likely not used (the Carlisle Millennium site preserved tanned leathers but not the internal leathers on the armguards). The matter is discussed in this thread.

Mike Bishop

Thanks Mike I thought you might come to the rescue Smile
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#9
Quote:Did anyone ever try using fish oil (or garum) to soak untanned cow hide? I've read the linked topic and saw no mention of it.

If neatsfoot oil counts, then I have two test pieces of modern Bovine rawhide soaking for about six months, one was put in thoroughly soaked with water to represent raw leather(although it obviously isnt), the other dry, I did take them out a while ago but there seems to be no discernible difference to when I put them in....
Clearly the rawhide needs manipulation for the oil to penetrate effectively.


However there are many other possibility's for the use of untanned skin or cured leather, though some may cause a good deal of corrosion on the metal parts of the cuirass.....

I have had/have used several different types of Elk skin , Oil cured and partial tanned veg/oil cured, the second one might be possible as its more like regular veg tanned leather, though highly flexible, but the other is like skin and way to stretchy.. really worse then using tanned goatskin.... I used most of it for making simple primitive shoes, for which its entirely suited because of its superior flexibility...
I'm not suggesting Elk was used or even deer, but its the closest that I've used, Oil cure/brain tanned Bovine/calf I think would be more durable but there's no supply that I know of off hand, though there is a type of half tanned leather available for making knife sheaths... the untanned core hardens after dampened moulding....
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#10
Thanks for the info and previous post Mr Bishop.
Much appreciated.,
Kevin
Kevin
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#11
Quote:Was it stronger than cow leather?
Kevin

In general goat leather is very tear resistant, but obviously not as thick as cow can potentially be. If you get really thick and well tanned goat leather (and cut it correctly) I'm sure it would be ok for use with a seg.
Btw. veg tanned leather (from any one given animal) is not necessarily one and the same product - depending on what you want to use the leather for, different tanning agents and methods are employed. They'd still all be called veg tanned leather. You can have e.g. bovine veg tanned leathers with completely different properties (stiffness, water absorbancy/resistence, stretch etc.).

Quote:Should I get out drinking Beer more?
Talk to your local brewer :-)
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#12
Quote:... leading to the conclusion that tanned leather was most likely not used (the Carlisle Millennium site preserved tanned leathers but not the internal leathers on the armguards). The matter is discussed in this thread.

Thanks, Mike, interesting stuff! I must have totally missed that thread back then. I'm following the argument, but 2 things keep me from simply accepting it:

1) Looking at at least some of the nailed soles it looks like the area around where the nails were is destroyed more than the areas in between the nailing, which may hint at different processes going on "at close quarters". These might explain why leather survives close by but not in direct contact. I'm not a chemist, nor do I know of any analysis of such shoe soles that would support my hunch, so I may be totally off of course.

2) I would be surprised if - and I'm borrowing Ockham's razor from you here for a quick shave, Mike ;-) - the Romans would have specifically used non-veg tanned leather for this one product when veg tanned leathers of all sorts were around and used for pretty much everything else and also likely serve the requirements better from a material properties point of view (testing needed to be certain in the end of course).

I'm not into the details of seg parts finds as much as I'd need to be, but aren't there any from Masada or other quite dryish regions were careful examination might reveal more?
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