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Flavius Promotus · 01-26-2004, 04:10 PM

Avete omnes - hi folks, 
 
I've seen this great pair of reconstructed 3rd century boots by Mark Beaby in Graham Sumner's 'Roman military clothing II (200-400)' [page 36] which were based on finds from Dura Europos. They are studded and have integrally cut laces. (I especially like the purple dyed version from "Probus - emperors in the field" on plate a) 
 
We have a discussion going on here whether we should use caligae or boots for reenacting the Severan army. 
Several people opt for caligae 'since they are cheaper and more comfortable during long-range marching'. 
 
IMHO the boots win since with them you have less problems with small stones, sherds, twigs etc. And they were probably better in humid conditions (or in winter). I didn't have the time to check the entire board for older discussions on footwear, so I'm forced to simply start a new one. 
 
Furthermore, were boots really THAT more difficult to manufacture than sandals ?? 
 
My most important question is the following: Can anybody provide me with accurate plans and sketches of how to make a pair of these laced boots ? 
Or at least similar boots ? 
 
Aitor, you seem to be an expert on the late Roman army, can you help me ? 
 
And has anybody ever done LONG marches with sandals AND boots (not simultaneously of course ) who can tell me about the difference ? 
 
Thank you in advance, 
Flavius Promotus<img src="http://www.romanarmy.com/RATstuff/GladiatorFHRAT.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

Flavius Promotus · 01-26-2004, 04:12 PM

BTW, how can I convince my image to appear in the left column, not directly below the text ?

aitor iriarte · 01-26-2004, 04:50 PM

Flavius, 
In fact, my group folks are wearing a simplifyed version of those eyelet-boots (I advised them about the anachronism but they didn't care, nasty boys! ) 
They haven't marched for long with them on but they all say that the boots are comfortable as slippers. 
Carol van Driel published a pattern for such boots but I've only seen it in a very reduced size and I'm not fully capable of understanding it! 
Anyway, that boots are not much more complicated to make than calligae and have the same structure, included the hobnailed outer sole. 
Graham visits asiduously this forum and, if he feels that he can help us, he will tell me! 
 
Aitor

Flavius Promotus · 01-26-2004, 06:25 PM

Thank you Aitor, that answer came faster than I expected 
And it convinced me to further follow the epic quest for 3rd century boots 
 
Your boys wear similar ones, but you don't ? So you wear these black half-open ones like on the piazza Armerina mosaic ? They look really... er... extravagant 
 
But I also have a faible for the late Roman army, so I will keep my mouth shut 
 
(However, research here is rather about late Roman navies than armies) 
 
<img src="http://www.romanarmy.com/RATstuff/GladiatorFHRAT.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

aitor iriarte · 01-26-2004, 08:00 PM

Oh, BTW, 
You can see our eyelet boots on this pic: 
<img src="http://www.euskalnet.net/oskarmaestu/Polainas2.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
Campagi were a sort of extravagancy which was worn by Roman (cavalry) officers during most part of Fourth century AD... 
With little hurry and your e-mail address, I could scan for you Carol's pattern of the eyelet boot. 
 
Aitor

01-26-2004, 08:48 PM

Could you please send me a copy of the shoe plans by Carol van Driel-Murray. I have looked at the photo in Graham's book and I am confussed about the sole area - it shows stitching in the sole with a smaller rounder hobnail around the edges. Also the area between the upper shoe leather and the sole leather. 
 
I have made many of the 3rd c type before based on the example in Bishop and Coulston's book. Plus I got to see and handle a pair from Hard Knot which had the same construction internaly and sole as the Bishop and Coulston book. 
 
I've also studied and illustrated medieval boots and shoes. They sometimes have extra pieces of leather edging around the shoe between the sole and upper leather. Looking at the photo in Graham's book makes me think that the Romans did this, or I could be wrong. 
 
 
[email protected]

Flavius Promotus · 01-27-2004, 06:32 AM

Paul, I was also pretty confused by the round hobnails around the edge. I don't think they were intended to imitate the usual wear and tear - do they have ANY function at all, or was making the shoe easier with the outermost nails flat ? (less chaos while stitching?) 
 
Aitor, the eyelet shoes on your pic look great, but I would prefer Carol's boot, since it is more closed, and I'm sitting here right at the Danube border (ok, it's about 4 km - ALMOST at the Danube), and weather conditions here can be quite cold and damp. 
 
My adress is: [email protected] 
 
All kinds of sketches, plans, pics and additional information on these (or similar) boots will receive a warm welcome ! 
 
Or could anybody give me Carol's email adress ? 
 
 
<img src="http://www.romanarmy.com/RATstuff/GladiatorFHRAT.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

aitor iriarte · 01-27-2004, 12:24 PM

OK, 
I'll try to scan it for you, but don't put great expectations on it, because it is a small diagram illustrating with other an old paper by Carol van Driel-Murray "Roman shoes on perspective" 
I've never studied 3rd century footwear seriously, because it lies out of the period I investigate (Late 3rd to early 5th century AD) 
 
Aitor

Uwe Bahr · 01-28-2004, 09:04 AM

Ave Promotus, 
 
I found the following address under RomanMilitary History/Archaeology, topic: Who's Who in Roman Military Studies 
 
[email protected] 
 
If You are still interested in information about Your personal photo, I can send You an email in Your assumed mother language. 
 
Mfg 
 
Uwe Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uwebahr>Uwe Bahr</A> at: 1/28/04 5:03 pm

Flavius Promotus · 01-28-2004, 09:46 AM

Dear Uwe, 
 
thank you for the kind help, but I've managed to get Carol van Driel's email adress just about 1 hour ago on my own 
 
I've sent her a couple of questions and a scan of the boots made by Mark Beaby. Hope she gives me an answer. 
 
Paul, I'll try to gather any information I can get on those boots. I have already a large number of sketches of finds (shoes, boots, sandals) from the Saalburg (Germany), but most of the shoes were probably civilian ones or even from Al Bundy's customers. 
 
If I can get more information about military boots I'll tell you. Please remind me of doing so as I am a little forgetful. 
 
Uwe, it would be nice if you could help me with the picture - just send me a mail.

FlaviusCrispus · 01-28-2004, 03:06 PM

Ave, frater Flavius. 
 
Legio VI Victrix, portraying the mid-to-late 2nd century AD, has adopted enclosed boots (clacei). Most of our core membership has either made a pair or is in the process of making them. The pattern we adopted was researched and first crreated by Prof. Arick Greenberg (Diogenes Draconis Syracusius). You can three variations on the basic theme here: 
 
[url=http://www.legionsix.org/10-03%20hike%20i.jpg" target="top]Boots[/url] 
 
This is a set made by Jeff Beilor, one of our members. I like the "IV" pattern of hobnails on the sole, which, when stamped into a barbarian's face, leaves a nice "VI": 
 
<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/bielercalcaeus.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Unfortunately, these are not so easy to make as caligae. They require you to make a set of "lasts," which are basically wooden feet the same size and shape as your own feet. The upper leather is stretched over the last to ensure a good fit. 
 
This model ought to be appropriate for a Severan legion. We can provide more details, patterns, etc. if you're interested. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/28/04 4:08 pm

TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 01-28-2004, 04:03 PM

Well done! After all, barbarians love tatoos... 
 
Vale, 
Titus Sabatinus Aquilius

scythius · 01-28-2004, 05:31 PM

Flavius Crispus - 
 
VERY nicely done! 
 
Scythius 
 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB 
 
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS -

Uwe Bahr · 01-29-2004, 10:24 AM

Promotus, 
 
e-Mail has just been sent, I used the address You mentioned in this topic ( [email protected] ).

Uwe Bahr · 01-29-2004, 11:48 AM

Promotus, 
 
I just got the message from my server, that the email-address indicated by you above does not work - should it be skynet instead of skyet? I sent my message to You again - but on Your RAT-inbox. So PLEASE, look into Your ezInbox (it is in the head line beside "Logged in as FLAVIUS PROMOTUS"). 
 
With friendly regards 
 
Uwe 
(Ranker for ever with 15 posts) Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uwebahr>Uwe Bahr</A> at: 1/29/04 12:56 pm

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