Legate/Tribune helmet hunt

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Wonderfull ! I was already writing a protestation letter to google because they "switch the italo-corinthian with another helmet who does not correspond "

Apulo-Chorinthian works perfectly ! You just saved google !

Again and again, thank you... Errare humanum est, isn't it ?

Oh yes! And I am if anything, very human! :lol:

[Marcus Mummius]

I have that helmet from Armae (I think it's the one in the pictures on their website). It's very nice! I bought it for a tribune impression.

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

How are you doing with that impression?

[Theodosius the Great]

Ave Tarbicus!!!!!!!!!
WOW!!!!!!!!!! You are absolutelyRIGHT!!!!!!!!!! Other than lacking the Sphinx on the crest box and the embossed fighters on the crown, that helm is spot on to the Rhodes Trophy!!!! Depending on how it is made, IMHO it would be worth ignoring the Thelenhofen helm (at least for my Hadrianic impression) for now.
Once again, the Romans have come through. The only way I could have had a better present for Christmas is if I had the money right now to order it. If and When anyone does contact the owner of ARCHEOS and finds out how the helment is made, please PM me D D
Salve to all for now,
Vitruvius a.k.a. Larry Mager

I dunno, Larry. Tarbicus is right, the Rhodes statue is Hellenistic (3rd C. b.C.).
OTOH, the Romans themselves wore Hellenistic armor during the mid-Republic
but do you really want to make an impression from that period ?

BTW, the Rhodes helmet looks like the inspiration for Leonidas' helmet from
the original '300 Spartans' (see the attachment below)

~Theo

[Vitruvius]

Ave,
You've got a point there... Maybe I will stick to the Thelenhofen repro!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: . It definitely fits the period.
Salve,
Larry Mager a.k.a. Vitruvius

[caiusbeerquitius]

As far as the "Apulo-Corinthian" goes: I don´t want to spoil anything, but the youngest examples from archaeological context seem to date to the 1st half of the 4th century BCE...

[Paullus Scipio]

As far as the "Apulo-Corinthian" goes: I don´t want to spoil anything, but the youngest examples from archaeological context seem to date to the 1st half of the 4th century BCE...

....except of course for the 'Autun' helmet - almost certainly a senior officer's helmet and dating from the first century A.D......and then there's a pillar carved with trophies of arms in the perigueux museum which includes a similar 'Apulo-Corinthian, early first century A.D.......not to mention the Domitius Ahenobarbus relief showing a senior Officer, or the God Mars, wearing one along with Hellenistic-style Officer's cuirass, complete with Officer's sash fastened with 'knot of Hercules' and dating from the late 1st Century B.C. ..... paintings from Pompeii showing such helmets ( late 1st C B.C. /early 1st C A.D). and that's just four examples off the top of my head, there's probably more !!!!! :oops: :oops:

[caiusbeerquitius]

I wasn´t talking about depictions.The presence in depictions is no proof that the helmet was worn later on.

The Autun helmet is hardly what is usually understood under the term "Apulo-Corinthian". That´s why we call it the "Autun Helmet" and not the "Apulo-Corinthian helmet from Autun".

[Paullus Scipio]

Christian wrote:

The Autun helmet is hardly what is usually understood under the term "Apulo-Corinthian". That´s why we call it the "Autun Helmet" and not the "Apulo-Corinthian helmet from Autun".

...the Autun helmet has all the characteristics of what are now referred to as 'Apulo-Corinthian' types. In Russell-Robinson's day, this term hadn't yet been coined, and he referred to the type as 'debased Corinthian type'.....and he firmly defined this helmet as 'debased Corinthian type from Autun'. To deny that the Autun example is of what we now refer to as 'Apulo Crinthian' is pedantic to say the least. What characteristic of this type does the Autun example lack? D

[Marcus F.]

Helmets from Imperial coins:

Gallienus (253-268 AD)


Probus (276-282 AD)








Maximianus I Herculis (286-310 AD)


Severus II (306-307 AD)


Constantinus I, the Great (307-337 AD)


Hannibalianus (Rex Regum 335-337 AD)

[Vitruvius]

Ave "Gentlemen"
We seem to be getting a bit "hot under the collar" with regards to the helment hunt....
All I was really looking for is a good photograph showing what the helment at the foot of the statue of Drusus looks like... nothing more! Still haven't found said photo...can't even find the address of the museum it is in so that I might contact said museum direct.
If anyone out there has said address, please P.M. it to me, I would be very grateful.

For now, Salve y'all,

Vitruvius...a.k.a Larry Mager

[PhilusEstilius]

Larry The picture you are looking for is in H.R. Robinson page 151 and the statue is in the museum in Cagliari Sardinia, the pic' in Robinson is not much good for most of the helmet is covered by his cloak. It could be copied from Robinson of course should you need it I suppose.

[caiusbeerquitius]

What characteristic of this type does the Autun example lack?

It does not at all fit into the Apulo-Corinthian classification system, it is neither a "A" "B" "C" or "D" type. Might be a type "E" at best, but doesn´t really fit, since the eyes are not worked out. It´s missing the neck plate at ~90° angle, and it misses the engraved decoration (especially the one in form of animals / boars, sphinges etc. which is to be found on almost all helmets) And it seems to miss the distinctive upper skull section /
(+ eyebrows)
See: Antike Helme p. 107-136.

is pedantic to say the least.

This forum has rules which are there for you as well. Some people need to be reminded continuously, of course, because they are special. Or they think to be so.
Just for you, so that you don´t have to go through all the effort of using the link and finding the right section in the text:

1. No dismissive, hostile, abusive or aggressive negative responses. Malicious behavior (personal insults, "mobbing" or just being a sarcastic thug) is abuse, and moderators will intervene at the first sign of nastiness.

[Paullus Scipio]

It does not at all fit into the Apulo-Corinthian classification system, it is neither a "A" "B" "C" or "D" type. Might be a type "E" at best, but doesn´t really fit, since the eyes are not worked out. It´s missing the neck plate at ~90° angle, and it misses the engraved decoration (especially the one in form of animals / boars, sphinges etc. which is to be found on almost all helmets) And it seems to miss the distinctive upper skull section /
(+ eyebrows)

......that is like saying that an Imperial Italic "H"/Niedermormter is not of the Imperial Italic type because it lacks/misses the features of types "A" "B" "C" or "D" ..... yet it shares the fundamental/basic characteristics; just as with it's 'pushed back Corinthian' basic shape, faux nosepiece, and faux eyeholes the Autun helmet is clearly derived from the 'Debased Corinthian' or 'Apulo Corinthian' type. Certainly Russell-Robinson classified it so. Perhaps German scholars might classify it differently, but if so that would be incorrect, since anyone looking at it can clearly see it's derivation.

Whatever the case, a pedantic debate about classification is not the point. The Autun helmet and the depictions I referred to above prove the continuous use of this type of helmet into the 1st C AD, most likely worn by senior Officers above the rank of Centurion ( i.e. Legates and Tribunes) and from a re-enactors point of view, this type ( also shown on the statue of Drusus - see above) is the obvious candidate for an impression of such an officer.

Clearly, and understandably given that English is not your first language, you have misunderstood what I wrote and assumed a personal meaning that is not there over my use of the word 'pedantic' ( and probably you may not understand the word itself). In doing so, you have done me an injustice.

Firstly, the word itself derives from the greek 'pedagogue'/teacher and means in this context 'laying excessive stress on details' ( as teachers do), or colloquially, 'hair-splitting'. ( see also my use of the word in this post ). Clearly the use of the word itself is not a breach of the rules.

Secondly, the Grammar of the sentence:

To deny that the Autun example is of what we now refer to as 'Apulo Corinthian' is pedantic to say the least.

... refers to an act, not a person. It can be stated in other words as " Were someone to deny that the the Autun example of what we now refer to as 'Apulo Corinthian' is 'hair splitting' to say the least." Even if you (mistakenly) think the word 'pedantic' to be offensive, it was not addressed to you i.e. not personal. Clearly no breach of the rules has taken place.

OTOH this:

This forum has rules which are there for you as well. Some people need to be reminded continuously, of course, because they are special. Or they think to be so.
Just for you, so that you don´t have to go through all the effort of using the link and finding the right section in the text:
Quote:1. No dismissive, hostile, abusive or aggressive negative responses. Malicious behavior (personal insults, "mobbing" or just being a sarcastic thug) is abuse, and moderators will intervene at the first sign of nastiness.

...absolutely reeks of sarcasm, is abusive ( and incorrect),dismissive, aggressive and extremely personally insulting. Not for the first time, you yourself break the rules.In the circumstances, an apology is called for.

[Paullus Scipio]

Larry The picture you are looking for is in H.R. Robinson page 151 and the statue is in the museum in Cagliari Sardinia, the pic' in Robinson is not much good for most of the helmet is covered by his cloak. It could be copied from Robinson of course should you need it I suppose.

...a close examination of the photo in Robinson reveals a rim with double crimp( debased Boeotian style), a high dome, and 'curlicues' above the rim. This is very like the Hellenistic Officer's helmet on the Great Altar relief at Pergamum ( see illustrations bottom P.80 and top P.81 of Connolly 'Greece and Rome at War' and the cover and p.35 of 'Hannibal and the enemies of Rome' where it is the model for Hannibal's helmet. This would give you an alternative to an 'Apulo-Corinthian/debased Corinthian' type.....