08-27-2008, 12:41 PM
Salvete,
Is there any proof that hunting with birds of prey took place in the Roman period?
Valete,
Falco
Is there any proof that hunting with birds of prey took place in the Roman period?
Valete,
Falco
Hunting with birds of prey in the Roman period
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08-27-2008, 12:41 PM
Salvete,
Is there any proof that hunting with birds of prey took place in the Roman period? Valete, Falco
08-27-2008, 01:06 PM
I've never come across any references. dtv Lexikon des Mittelalters says that while the practice dates back pretty far in Central Asia (probably 2nd or even 3rd millennium BC), it doesn't make it into Europe until the Migration period when Germanic peoples adopt it from the Sarmatians and Alans.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!
Volker Bach
08-27-2008, 03:04 PM
We have this interesting bit:
Quote:In what places hawks and men pursue the chase in company with each other. However, I think that some people claim that the men of Thrace simply learned to follow hawks, not actually keep them for the purpose of hunting. It is a bit difficult to guess from this passage.
David J. Cord
www.davidcord.com
08-27-2008, 06:11 PM
Either way, I'd read that as saying it would be quite a novelty to a Roman, else Pliny would not have described it that way.
I have to admit I have a little trouble imagining an untrained hawk sharing its prey with humans, so I would lean toward seeing them as trained. This might not be to the "bird-on-your-wrist" level, though.
Wayne Anderson/ Wander
08-28-2008, 04:42 AM
It seems certain that Pliny is just reporting what he has heard, so he (or his source) may have muddled what the Thracians were actually doing.
I think it is possible that the hawks and men learned to work together for mutual benefit, even if the hawks weren't trained. Just as an example, when I was growing up I had to cut a lot of grass. One type of bird learned to follow the lawnmower to eat the bugs that were displaced. I was happy to have less bugs flying around, and the birds were happy to have something to eat. I suppose hawks could learn that people would scare up game for them too.
David J. Cord
www.davidcord.com
08-28-2008, 06:51 AM
According to Encyclopaedia Britannica:
Falconry is an ancient sport that has been practiced since preliterate times. Stelae depicting falconry that were created by the Hittites date to the 13th century BC, and cave paintings from prehistoric sites may represent even earlier references to falconry. Merchants, adventurers, and Crusaders from Europe and England became familiar with falconry in the Middle East and on their return home took falcons and falconers with them. Source: http://original.britannica.com/eb/artic ... 72382.hook Regards, David Chibo http://www.gilgameshgames.org
08-28-2008, 06:31 PM
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Wayne Anderson/ Wander
08-28-2008, 06:58 PM
Hi Jef
Quote:Is there any proof that hunting with birds of prey took place in the Roman period? Yes. Some mosaic scenes from Antioch and Argos show hunting with birds. The men wear gloves on ther left hand too! Best wishes Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock. "..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
08-28-2008, 09:37 PM
Quote:Yes. Some mosaic scenes from Antioch and Argos show hunting with birds. The men wear gloves on ther left hand too! Whoa! I had no idea about this, very cool! Graham - Antioch, so are we talking 200's AD?
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier." https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/ Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S. Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013) (Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
08-28-2008, 09:48 PM
Graham - Was it strictly in the east or is it possable that it was at some point throughout the empire? do we have a time frame on the mosaics?Do we have enough information? it would seem that at least at Pliny time it would not have been in the western europe. Also is there any way to understand in what context ( sport or actual hunt for food ) does the mosaic scenes from Antioch and Argos show the hunt? are the images available anywhere? Thanks this is really interesting !
Animals die, friends die, and I shall die, but one thing never dies, and that is the reputation we leave behind after our death.
No man loses Honour who had any in the first place. - Syrus Octavianvs ( Johnn C. ) MODERATOR ROMAN ARMY TALK Click for Rule for Posting [url:3135udah]http://romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
08-29-2008, 01:21 AM
Hi
Yes both mosaics have been published. Apologies I had a senior moment the Antioch mosaic is in fact in Jordan not Syria. I was thinking of another hunting mosaic. The Jordan one will possibly be the one easier to find and does appear in more than one book. The books are: Argos Mosaic in Iacovidis, S.E. 1988: Micene, Epidauruo,Argo, Tiranto, Nauplia. Athens Most people notice the soldier in red tunic in the seasons mosaic but the hunters including the man with the bird have some interesting costume. Jordan Mosaic in Piccirillo, M. 1993: I Mosaici di Giordania, Amman This book is available in English. Lots of sources for late Roman clothing too. Both mosaics are late Roman c. sixth century, the Jordan one is part of a larger hunting scene. I found the Jordan mosaic first because a friend who is a falconer asked me if there was any evidence for falconry in the Roman period. So when I was doing my research into tunic and cloak colours I made a note to look our for any pictorial sources for hunting with birds .The funny thing was when I finally saw the mosaic the falconer in the scene was the perfect likeness of my friend!! I seem to recall that when I showed him he said it was some type of Falcon that was depicted. In all the books I have looked through these are the only two images of hunting birds that I have seen so far. Hope this helps. Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock. "..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
09-01-2008, 12:45 AM
Graham - Great Thanks it is much appreciated!
Animals die, friends die, and I shall die, but one thing never dies, and that is the reputation we leave behind after our death.
No man loses Honour who had any in the first place. - Syrus Octavianvs ( Johnn C. ) MODERATOR ROMAN ARMY TALK Click for Rule for Posting [url:3135udah]http://romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
09-01-2008, 01:34 PM
Thanks, Graham, excellent information
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