11-19-2007, 03:34 PM
Have you experimented with them? How effective are they agaist an armoured/non-armoured enemy with a shield maybe?
Juuso Laasonen
Plumbata
|
11-19-2007, 03:34 PM
Have you experimented with them? How effective are they agaist an armoured/non-armoured enemy with a shield maybe?
Juuso Laasonen
11-19-2007, 03:56 PM
Quote:Peroni wrote: The Deepeeka ones are made like this... When assembled, the lead is cast over the socket/join.
11-20-2007, 04:33 PM
Quote:The Deepeeka ones are made like this... When assembled, the lead is cast over the socket/join. Then I'm still as puzzled as before - because even though the lead does not feel like lead, I'm no expert in metallurgy. But I KNOW the weight is distributed differently than all other plumbatae I've held! :?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST (Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
01-23-2008, 08:39 PM
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST (Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
04-04-2008, 12:46 AM
Hi Tomothy.
Like Ste says, plumbatae have a much longer range than the pilum ever had. But the javelin also changed, from the weighted pilum to the unweighted verutum and spiculum by the time of Vegetius. I looks like the heavy javelin disappeared anyway. So yes, addditional weapons, but also different, and probably for a different role.. Also, the weight need not have been too tiring to the infantryman - it may have been possible that this decription refers to a means of transportation. To throw plumbatae quickly, they are likely to have beeen removed from the shield before throwing. Quote:Timotheus:3srfpohd Wrote:At least some legions in the late Empire switched from the pilum and the spiculum to the much smaller and lighter darts called plumbata... Quote:Thanks for the information. The few sources I had read on it suggested that they replaced the larger heaviers javalins which made no sense.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST (Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
04-04-2008, 07:42 AM
Early Romans seem wedded to their pila, while later Romans always seem to concentrate on the throwing dart.
Later infantry were literally carrying a range of javelins to the battlefield. Using Vegetius for terminology and size, the spiculum is now the "heavy" javelin, weighing around 665g. The verutum is a lighter cheaper javelin of around 350g. They both have a range of around 20m, but the spicula hits with the greatest penetrative power. A glass from Germany shows infantry carrying two spicula, but for the same weight a quiver of veruta could be carried, perhaps better for use against "light" infantry. The spiculum will probably bend on impact. But untempered bent spicula and damaged veruta can be easily re-shaped and sharpened. Before or even during action veruta could be passed to the front ranks to throw. But buckets of plumbata could also be passed forward or issued. At around 200g for an individual dart, they are light and small enough to make transport relatively easy. I disagree that they were strapped to the internal right hand side of the shield. Over 1kg of lead and iron pulls the shield out of alignment. But buckets of darts as mentioned by Maurice, can be tied to the shield handle keeping the weight centralised and the shield in a vertical alignment. The darts can be retrieved and thrown quickly, without the bucket getting in the way. It certainly allows the darts to be carried inside the shield without trying to carry them in your in your hand. Underarm plumbata out-range other javelins, with 80m being easily achieved. They land near to vertical over the shields of your enemy, making a hazard for horses as well. Thrown overarm plumbata have a greater velocity than a javelin, which compensates for their relatively light weight. The join between the metal and wooden components generally break on impact. The darts can be put back in commission in the field but it takes relatively longer to effect repairs. When deciding what to carry choices have to be made. I suspect veruta and plumbata could be issued before any general action. So two spicula seem a good general combination for a pede to carry for most occasions. They can also serve as a primary hand to hand weapon, but spears have twice the weight and seem to have been longer. "Light" infantry would perhaps favour carrying veruta, and more of them. A bucket of plumbata could be useful at anytime.
John Conyard
York A member of Comitatus Late Roman Reconstruction Group <a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net <a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net <a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
04-04-2008, 12:55 PM
Does anyone know (roughly!) how many plumbata have been found in the west - specifically the north-west (i.e. the Rhine provinces but also Britain)? The Wroxeter one(?s) I know about.
I have a hunch that the Rhine garrison units in the late period (by the late C4th) were using the throwing axe in a similar way, but alongside or as an alternative, I don't know. Cheers, Guy
Guy Halsall
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/hist/staff/halsall.shtml">http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/hist/staff/halsall.shtml
04-04-2008, 02:46 PM
I can think of examples of plumbata from Catterick (in our local museum) and Burgh Castle.
Burgh Castle also yielded two axes which show all the characteristics of early throwing axes. My axe weighs 475g, less than a spiculum. But the velocity of the axe is greater so it seems to carry a greater punch. I certainly wouldn't want to carry any more than two of these axes. I can't get great accuracy beyond 10m, but 20m is easily possible. The throwing axe is another possible missile weapon for a pede, perhaps used at close range, and capable of causing a great deal of damage. It's not an alternative to a dart. But possibly it is an alternative to a spiculum. Last summer I'll admit to throwing some axes from horseback. Accuracy went out of the window, and I spent so much time preparing my throw the horse added no speed to the weapon. All things considered I was pleased the horse still had a head at the end of the exercise. But plumbata are easily used from horseback and are a great versatile weapon.
John Conyard
York A member of Comitatus Late Roman Reconstruction Group <a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net <a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net <a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
04-04-2008, 03:20 PM
That's interesting, John. Thanks. I always wondered about the practicality of using a francisca from horseback!
Guy
Guy Halsall
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/hist/staff/halsall.shtml">http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/hist/staff/halsall.shtml
04-04-2008, 03:40 PM
Reconstructive archaeology, no dead-end unexplored!
On Sunday there'll be six or seven Roman cavalrymen exploring various weapons and skills not so far from York. It's the day when Comitatus judge their riders for the coming year. Axes to kitchen sinks will be thrown at our poor bloody infantry. I'm smiling just thinking about it.....
John Conyard
York A member of Comitatus Late Roman Reconstruction Group <a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net <a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net <a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
04-04-2008, 04:35 PM
Just one word:
MITE!:twisted: Enjoy it! :wink: (an write a loooong post with lots pictures, WE always want more :lol: )
-This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how
sheep´s bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes. Iagoba Ferreira Benito, member of Cohors Prima Gallica and current Medieval Martial Arts teacher of Comilitium Sacrae Ensis, fencing club.
04-05-2008, 12:21 AM
Quote:plumbata are easily used from horseback and are a great versatile weapon. They pack a heck of a punch direct from horseback When they smack into your shield they sound like a firework going off and I'm always concerned that I might not be covering my feet: I'm sure boot leather wouldn't be much use (and these are blunts). They seem to deliver more energy than veruta, but I'm not sure if that's just because of the solid tips: I wonder if we can test that? I get the impression I might have the time to deflect a verutum, but the plumbata seems more akin to an arrow - too fast to dodge, one can only flinch. hock:
Salvianus: Ste Kenwright
A member of Comitatus Late Roman Historical Re-enactment Group My Re-enactment Journal ~ antiquum obtinens ~
04-05-2008, 06:50 PM
When I was doing my Ph.D on Roman weapons, a few more years back than I care to recall, I noted the following finds in GB:
Burgh Castle (2) Caernarvon (3) Caerwent (1) Catterick (2) Doncaster (1) Richborough (2) Wroxeter (6) A very incomplete survey of continental parallels threw up examples from Furfooz (in Belgium), Lauriacum & Weissenburg (both in Raetia), Lentia (in Noricum) and another in Weisbaden Museum. No doubt there's been more finds since. It may be noted that the majority of the British finds are from non-legionary sites and the contexts (where dated) are mainly 4th-5th century.
They have created a desolation and called it peace
Davidus 77 / David Marchant
04-06-2008, 10:07 AM
That's useful, thank you.
John Conyard
York A member of Comitatus Late Roman Reconstruction Group <a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net <a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net <a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
04-06-2008, 02:01 PM
Quote:Does anyone know (roughly!) how many plumbata have been found in the west - specifically the north-west (i.e. the Rhine provinces but also Britain)? The Wroxeter one(?s) I know about. Ok, plumbata lists. I'm working on an article so forgive me if I do not spill too many beans here :? , but I can of course give you a list with places and numbers. In total I now know of 120 examples, published and unpublished. Most of these are from the western half of the empire, but I have the naggging impression that loads of examples from the Balkans are not (yet?) published. Apart from a few finds from georgia, no finds are reported from the Asian or African provinces. But maybe these are not yet recognised as such. Quote:I noted the following finds in GB: List for the northwestern provinces: Britain 26 Burgh Castle, Garriannonum, 2 ex. Caernarfon, Segontium, 3 ex Caerwent, Venta Silurum, 2 ex. Catterick, Cataractonium, 2 ex. Cirencester, Corinium Dobunnorum, 1 ex. Doncaster, Danum, 1 ex. Kenchester, Magnis, 3 ex. Nettleton, 1 ex. Richborough, Rutupiae, 2 ex. Wroxeter, Viroconium Cornoviorum, 9 ex. None from The Netherlands or Belgium. Germany 4 (Wiesbaden Weissenberg, Mainz, Grünwald), France 7 (Arras, Oedenburg, Königshofen, Strasbourg, Furfooz, Vermand), Switzerland 3 (Augst, Windisch), Liechtenstein 1 (Schaan), Austria 4 (Bad Deutsch Altenburg, Linz, Lorch). David, most UK examples are maybe from non-legionary sites, but Late Roman military sites are, after all, hard to define as legionary or non-legionary. The plumbata dates from a period when the military began to be organised between limitanei and comitatenses, and I would therefore rather say that most finds come from military sites or military-related sites, such as the towns. Quote:When I was doing my Ph.D on Roman weapons, a few more years back than I care to recall Not thát long ago, surely! Marchant, David (1990): Roman weapons in Great Britain, a case study: spearheads, problems in dating and typology, in: Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies, vol. 1, pp. 1-6. Marchant, David (1993): Spearheads from Segontium, in: P J Casey and J L Davies with J Evans: Excavations at Segontium (Caernarfon) Roman Fort, 1975-1997, CBA Research report 90, pp. 189, Fig.5, at: http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/library/cba/rr90.cfm .
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST (Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12) |
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »
|