03-28-2004, 08:42 AM
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Most of these privately found helmets would likely have never been found through proper archaeological excavation, and I therefore believe that it is better that they are brought to light, even under these less-than-perfect circumstances, than to never be discovered at all, eventually rusting away to nothing.<hr><br>
<br>
Dan,<br>
I find this comment very worrying. You make it sound as if these 'relic-hunters' are doing us a favour! They most certainly do not! Apart from a small community of people who search designated sites such as building spots where the earth is disturbed, by far the most of the artefact illegally dug up in Germany are 'found' by people seeking profit only. They systematically search the woods (especially now in eastern Europe) in teams with professional equipment, destroying each site to rip out the valuable pieces.<br>
<br>
"Less-than-perfect circumstances", indeed! You obviously have no idea of the damage that is currently being done to the archaeological record in Germany these days, and which is going on at such a large scale that the authorities are unable to stop it from happening.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>In fact, using the Gutmann collection as just one example, artifacts in private collections are sometimes published more quickly and exhibited to the public much quicker than many similar objects languishing for years in the storage areas of 'public', museums staffed by professsional archaeologists. Remember too, that some of the most important museums housing Roman military artifacts, such as the Kam at Nijmegen, was originally a private collection.<hr><br>
<br>
The Gutmann and Kam collections were indeed private, but it is very unfair to use them as an example here, because both were collected during times when there a) was no proper archaeological sciense and b) there were no laws against selling archaeological items privately.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>We will never fully curtail this illicit searching. By outlawing it, you only insure that the objects will never be studied scientifically. <hr><br>
<br>
By accepting illegal searching you will absolutely ensure that all of these objects will never bring the knowledge they would have if reported when found.<br>
Sure, archaeologists in any country don't have the funds to search all and everything, and indeed rarther leave sites alone if they don't have to. After all, archaeology is destroying, and the archaeologist knows that the future will bring better techniques.<br>
But illegal robbers don't care for that. This is not a case of 'salvaging' or 'rescuing' items, this is only for the money.<br>
And even if not, no-one should be blinded by a piece of metal (jewellry or a helmet) and completely ignore the circumstances of that piece in the ground. We have done that in the past all too often, lokking only for the gold and ignoring the wood and textile, to our everlasting regret today.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Fantastic finds are brought to light all the time by private detecting enthusiasts in Britain, who report their finds to the authorities since they know they will be fairly paid if the museum wants the object. In the less-enlightened countries of continental, "Old Europe", important finds are secretly sold away on the black market, for the finder knows if he reports it, the object will be taken from him without payment, and he himself likely fined. <hr><br>
<br>
The Portable Finds Scheme in Britain is a good one, but it does not prevent much illegal digging, because in Britain as well as on the continent, organised crime has found this 'relic-hunting' to be very profitable. Whole fields are dug up with heavy machinery in one night to find some gold pieces, detroying all.<br>
But hey, these pieces would otherwise have been lost to us, right? <br>
<br>
You make it sound as if anyone reporting a find is fined! That is certainly not the case. Anyone reporting a chance find does not get fined - only those who have been illegally searching are fined! And why should they keep it? Does such a piece not belong to the whole community? But no, it should be sold on to the rich, so that the 'peasant' can earn a meagre living?<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>This is the greatest tragedy, and largely preventable if the professionals did not have such a haughty attitude, much like the nobility of "old Europe" forbidding the mere peasants from hunting on their royal estates. It is good that there are buyers for these rusty military objects, for the private searchers will never stop looking for coins and jewelry of precious metals. At least now, with collectors, they may also sell their bits of military equipment that they otherwise would leave behind or later throw away. <hr><br>
<br>
If find this what you say very incomprehensible. You are saying that illegal digging is good? Why should an ancient object languish in a private collection, where it belongs to some rich person? Now that is the old feudalistic idea returned - if you have money, you shall have the good stuff! Some 'peasant' will receive a price (mostly far below the value - it is, after all, illegally found) but the 'nobility' who can afford it will either sell it on or display it to their 'nobility' friends. OK, sure, now that is the right way!<br>
<br>
The professionals do not have a 'haughty' attitude, they are dead scared of those ripping out the gold and destroying the rest in the process. But what if everyone was allowed to dig everywhere they wanted? The archaeological record would be destroyed in a matter of a few years, with all the modern equipment available today. A few tidbits would come to light, sure, maybe even your 'alternative' Varus battlefield, but all soil marks and perished traces of everything our ancestors, would be gone. Our children and their children would be left with nothing.<br>
It is true that private searchers will never stop looking for coins and jewelry of precious metals, but we must do our best to stop most of them destroying our past in the process, and preventing them from throwing away any oblect at all!<br>
<br>
I agree absolutely that legal finders should receive a reward, if they did not break any law. I'm against private collections though, for these will always create the markets for illegal digging.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 3/28/04 10:43 am<br></i>
<br>
Dan,<br>
I find this comment very worrying. You make it sound as if these 'relic-hunters' are doing us a favour! They most certainly do not! Apart from a small community of people who search designated sites such as building spots where the earth is disturbed, by far the most of the artefact illegally dug up in Germany are 'found' by people seeking profit only. They systematically search the woods (especially now in eastern Europe) in teams with professional equipment, destroying each site to rip out the valuable pieces.<br>
<br>
"Less-than-perfect circumstances", indeed! You obviously have no idea of the damage that is currently being done to the archaeological record in Germany these days, and which is going on at such a large scale that the authorities are unable to stop it from happening.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>In fact, using the Gutmann collection as just one example, artifacts in private collections are sometimes published more quickly and exhibited to the public much quicker than many similar objects languishing for years in the storage areas of 'public', museums staffed by professsional archaeologists. Remember too, that some of the most important museums housing Roman military artifacts, such as the Kam at Nijmegen, was originally a private collection.<hr><br>
<br>
The Gutmann and Kam collections were indeed private, but it is very unfair to use them as an example here, because both were collected during times when there a) was no proper archaeological sciense and b) there were no laws against selling archaeological items privately.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>We will never fully curtail this illicit searching. By outlawing it, you only insure that the objects will never be studied scientifically. <hr><br>
<br>
By accepting illegal searching you will absolutely ensure that all of these objects will never bring the knowledge they would have if reported when found.<br>
Sure, archaeologists in any country don't have the funds to search all and everything, and indeed rarther leave sites alone if they don't have to. After all, archaeology is destroying, and the archaeologist knows that the future will bring better techniques.<br>
But illegal robbers don't care for that. This is not a case of 'salvaging' or 'rescuing' items, this is only for the money.<br>
And even if not, no-one should be blinded by a piece of metal (jewellry or a helmet) and completely ignore the circumstances of that piece in the ground. We have done that in the past all too often, lokking only for the gold and ignoring the wood and textile, to our everlasting regret today.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Fantastic finds are brought to light all the time by private detecting enthusiasts in Britain, who report their finds to the authorities since they know they will be fairly paid if the museum wants the object. In the less-enlightened countries of continental, "Old Europe", important finds are secretly sold away on the black market, for the finder knows if he reports it, the object will be taken from him without payment, and he himself likely fined. <hr><br>
<br>
The Portable Finds Scheme in Britain is a good one, but it does not prevent much illegal digging, because in Britain as well as on the continent, organised crime has found this 'relic-hunting' to be very profitable. Whole fields are dug up with heavy machinery in one night to find some gold pieces, detroying all.<br>
But hey, these pieces would otherwise have been lost to us, right? <br>
<br>
You make it sound as if anyone reporting a find is fined! That is certainly not the case. Anyone reporting a chance find does not get fined - only those who have been illegally searching are fined! And why should they keep it? Does such a piece not belong to the whole community? But no, it should be sold on to the rich, so that the 'peasant' can earn a meagre living?<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>This is the greatest tragedy, and largely preventable if the professionals did not have such a haughty attitude, much like the nobility of "old Europe" forbidding the mere peasants from hunting on their royal estates. It is good that there are buyers for these rusty military objects, for the private searchers will never stop looking for coins and jewelry of precious metals. At least now, with collectors, they may also sell their bits of military equipment that they otherwise would leave behind or later throw away. <hr><br>
<br>
If find this what you say very incomprehensible. You are saying that illegal digging is good? Why should an ancient object languish in a private collection, where it belongs to some rich person? Now that is the old feudalistic idea returned - if you have money, you shall have the good stuff! Some 'peasant' will receive a price (mostly far below the value - it is, after all, illegally found) but the 'nobility' who can afford it will either sell it on or display it to their 'nobility' friends. OK, sure, now that is the right way!<br>
<br>
The professionals do not have a 'haughty' attitude, they are dead scared of those ripping out the gold and destroying the rest in the process. But what if everyone was allowed to dig everywhere they wanted? The archaeological record would be destroyed in a matter of a few years, with all the modern equipment available today. A few tidbits would come to light, sure, maybe even your 'alternative' Varus battlefield, but all soil marks and perished traces of everything our ancestors, would be gone. Our children and their children would be left with nothing.<br>
It is true that private searchers will never stop looking for coins and jewelry of precious metals, but we must do our best to stop most of them destroying our past in the process, and preventing them from throwing away any oblect at all!<br>
<br>
I agree absolutely that legal finders should receive a reward, if they did not break any law. I'm against private collections though, for these will always create the markets for illegal digging.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 3/28/04 10:43 am<br></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)