Common errors about Antiquity

[Jona Lendering]

:?: I thought Egyptians, Babylonians and other cultures had slaves.

I think Jim was referring to a misunderstanding; indeed, Hollywood only shows slavery in the Roman Empire. Slaves are indeed conspicuously absent from recent movies like Alexander and Troy.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Some more:

-The "rudis" that gladiators received when freed from the arena penalty was a woden sword

What was it then? I've always wondered about that.

M.

Acording to Dunkle (and Ville if I'm not mistaken) the word for the wooden sword used for training is always in the latin plural, "rudes", although with a singular meaning, while the wooden object given to the gladiator at his/hers release from service is a "rudis", singular, that is, a rod. So they were given a wooden rod, not a wooden sword.

Formally this may mean rod indeed, but I somehow feel getting a simple rod is weird given the importance of the act of "freeing" the gladiator from his business. Or is "rod" then just a slang word for sword?

But if really a rod, are there any other info on this rod then, like inscriptions? Or may be a depiction of a sword on it?

just wondering ...

[Gorgon]

Formally this may mean rod indeed, but I somehow feel getting a simple rod is weird given the importance of the act of "freeing" the gladiator from his business. Or is "rod" then just a slang word for sword?

But if really a rod, are there any other info on this rod then, like inscriptions? Or may be a depiction of a sword on it?

just wondering ...

As far as I'm aware there's no description of any nature of the object itself anywhere. All there is is the word for the object in the ancient texts. The authors assumed that obviously everyone knew what it was at that time. Seying how many objects of this nature were quite simple, like laurel crowns and leaves of palmtree, etc, I don't have a problem with a wooden rod. Plus, it's what the word means. The idea of the wooden sword sounds cool and romantic but there really is no evidence for it as far as I'm aware.

I think this is one of those idead that creep in even into the academic conscience and stay as a continuity error, just like the idea that Hoplite derives from the shield hoplon. It took Lazenby to analyse the evidence and dispell the myth but even today it still is the more comon definition in academic literature.

[M. Demetrius]

It may well be true, just as you say. However, we have to be careful not to go too far in the direction of, "...it's what the word means..." because, for example, furca means fork, not "cross-shaped carrying pole". For some weird reason, I have an almost insurmountable desire to go into the woods and find a forked stick of appropriate size, and replace my cross-lashed furca. I'm sure that will cause a stir. (BTW, other people believe it was just a stick, in which case, why did they call it a "fork"?)

I don't know why I believe there was an engraved plate put on a wooden gladius to signify a freed gladiator. Maybe it's myth, maybe it's not. Dunno. That's what we see for the most part, though, isn't it?

[Gorgon]

I don't know why I believe there was an engraved plate put on a wooden gladius to signify a freed gladiator. Maybe it's myth, maybe it's not. Dunno. That's what we see for the most part, though, isn't it?

Maybe you saw it in a movie? :wink:

Now seriously, you're right. I don't speak latin unfortunately (or greek for that matter), but woudn't it make sense to still use "rudes" for the wooden sword given to gladiators instead of shifting it to "rudis", if it was indeed the same object? I just don't see why would that be so. Seems to me more logic that it was a wooden rod instead. Maybe it was a nod to the wooden stick used by the rudiarii? Gladiators who were freed from the arena were not necesserily released as free man/women, many probably never were, and it seems that most would keep going on as slaves in the role of rudiarius, doctoris, etc (at least untill they fulfiled, as it became law at a certain point during the empire, the 5 years minimum time of "service", at which point they could be released or buy their freedom by/from the lanista or by the provider of the games). What was the term used in the sources for the stick used by those rudiarii? Maybe it was symbolic of that stick.

[M. Demetrius]

Well, though I'm no Latin expert, I can share this:
Harper Collins Latin Concise Dictionary defines rudis (the noun, not the adjective) as
"rudis, -is f stick, rod; foil (for fighting practice); (fig) discharge.

Rudis when used as an adjective means unworked, raw, coarse, badly-made, etc.

Rudus, on the other hand means rubble, rubbish, a piece of copper, or a copper coin. In the English section, Rod is translated virga and stick as fustis if it's a stick for beating (like a club) or baculum if it's a walking stick.

From that I get that the word Rudis when applying to a gladiator's being discharged could just as easily be a practice wooden gladius as a rod. My guess is that it's the former, since being given a stick only wouldn't mean much, while a wooden gladius (the training sword) might have had any number of symbolic meanings associated with it, such as turning in the lethal blade for a practice one, therefore returning to the condition from which the discharged gladiator had entered the ludus in the first place. But that's just imagination. I did a quick scan of Junkelman's Gladiators and Caesars, but didn't spot mention of the Rudis there.

[SOCL]

Can someone provide a primary source citation/example of the word's use? :| That would reveal much more, I think - especially depending on the context.

[Gorgon]

Well, though I'm no Latin expert, I can share this:
Harper Collins Latin Concise Dictionary defines rudis (the noun, not the adjective) as
"rudis, -is f stick, rod; foil (for fighting practice); (fig) discharge.

Rudis when used as an adjective means unworked, raw, coarse, badly-made, etc.

Rudus, on the other hand means rubble, rubbish, a piece of copper, or a copper coin. In the English section, Rod is translated virga and stick as fustis if it's a stick for beating (like a club) or baculum if it's a walking stick.

From that I get that the word Rudis when applying to a gladiator's being discharged could just as easily be a practice wooden gladius as a rod. My guess is that it's the former, since being given a stick only wouldn't mean much, while a wooden gladius (the training sword) might have had any number of symbolic meanings associated with it, such as turning in the lethal blade for a practice one, therefore returning to the condition from which the discharged gladiator had entered the ludus in the first place. But that's just imagination. I did a quick scan of Junkelman's Gladiators and Caesars, but didn't spot mention of the Rudis there.

That makes sense, but why not just call it a "rudes" then, which is the form used for the actual training wooden sword?


It would be interesting to know what is the term used for the stick used by the rudiarii.

[M. Demetrius]

Because rudes would be a plural?

[Gorgon]

Because rudes would be a plural?

Yes, but "rudes", the plural, is used in the original sources for naming the wooden training sword in a SINGULAR sense. That's what I said in my first post. So, if you can use "rudes" in plural form to designate a SINGLE wooden training sword, why change it to "rudis" to designate the same basic object when given to a gladiator as a symbol of freedom from the arena? That's why I say that it doesn't make sense to be a wooden sword.

Am I beying clear with my english here?

[M. Demetrius]

The English is clear enough. It's the Latin we're having trouble with, eh? :wink: :lol:

Until someone produces more original info, or declares from some authority of Latin scholarship, I guess we're stuck here. :|

[D B Campbell]

Can someone provide a primary source citation/example of the word's use?

I much prefer Lewis & Short to HarperCollins or even OLD: Rudis (2). (Plenty of primary source citations for you to chase!)

[john m roberts]

Actually, movies have both covered.
In "Gladiator" the manumitted gladiator got a wooden sword.
In "Barabbas" he was given a decorated baton.

[Jona Lendering]

Thanks all, for the input. I have made a start with my little book, which will be written in Dutch. Still, several pieces are available in English: go here.

[Tarbicus]

- Humans descent from monkeys/apes

An aside: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... _ancestor/