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Hi Martin,
Larry Mager here. I like your ideas about the Romans having unknown leather treatments, but before Dan writes in, I am curious if You have seen in print any of these possible leather treatment ideas and, if so, where? I am interested in finding out because soon, (I hope), I might be able to experiment with them. I still agree with the vast majority that musculatas were made of metal.......I could see them made of leather much later and being worn over chain as a form of Tabard i.e. Byzantine dress armor. Again though, I can't find the proof for even that, sadly.
Anyway, As a Squid, I have to say, I have always got along with the "Coasties" so "Semper Paratus", My Friend!!
Larry (Vitruvius) Mager
Larry A. Mager
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Beaby, M and Richardson, T. (1997) Hardened Leather Armour. Leeds:Royal Armouries Yearbook
The above would seem to be the ideal article to get hold of.
It has been mooted that such objects as the leather shield, which survived for two and a half thousand years, found at Clonbrin in Ireland must have had some form of hardening treatment, additional to the 'moulding when wet and drying' found in basic cuir bouilli treatments.
I have just come across this:
"In 1278 for a tournament in Windsor 38 cuirasses of cuir boulli were made by Milo the Currier: he was supplied with ‘Carda’ canvas to line them with."
So Medieval usage married moulded leather with textile in the manufacture of armour - of course we cannot know if the lining was applied during the moulding of the leather or afterwards.
Martin
Fac me cocleario vomere!
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Hi Martin,
Thanks for the info. I'll see if I can get any copies off of Amazon or Ex Libris. As faithful followers of "Archeology Today", "Minerva" and "World Archeology", jaqui and I have noticed a new trend which says that if One wishes to dig the following year, then One MUST publish what One has found this season with in 6 months. My point is that there might still be a lot of items, mouldering away on shelves that haven't been published yet...including leather items, so who knows what might be published. Jaqui's recent professor, Dr. Stevens also mentioned that. What an amazing world we are living in!
Gotta Scoot! Semper Paratus, Mi Frater!!!
Larry (Vitruvius) and Jaqui (Antonia) Mager
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A few months ago I was searching an Italian
re-enector site on the web.
I found a link
to a book in Italian on Roman Armor
on the front cover was a brass musculata curass
and a tall crested "attic"? helmet of a Legate?
resembled a brass Napolionic cavalry helmet
in the shape of its drooping visor and shape of the
nape of the neck detail on the helmet. Republican era?
not sure?
can anyone recommend a link for the book?
Thanks....
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Quote:Beaby, M and Richardson, T. (1997) Hardened Leather Armour. Leeds:Royal Armouries Yearbook
It has been mooted that such objects as the leather shield, which survived for two and a half thousand years, found at Clonbrin in Ireland must have had some form of hardening treatment, additional to the 'moulding when wet and drying' found in basic cuir bouilli treatments.
I've read the report. The hypothesis has been "mooted" with absolutely no evidence to back it up. It is impossible to tell whether 2000 year old leather has been artificially hardened or whether it's current state is a natural process that comes from being buried for millennia.
Quote:I have just come across this:
"In 1278 for a tournament in Windsor 38 cuirasses of cuir boulli were made by Milo the Currier: he was supplied with ‘Carda’ canvas to line them with."
The only time leather armour is mentioned in regards to tournaments is when those tournaments used wooden boffers instead of real weapons. All other leather armour in medieval Western Europe was worn over mail.
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Quote:Urselius post=342403 Wrote:Beaby, M and Richardson, T. (1997) Hardened Leather Armour. Leeds:Royal Armouries Yearbook
It has been mooted that such objects as the leather shield, which survived for two and a half thousand years, found at Clonbrin in Ireland must have had some form of hardening treatment, additional to the 'moulding when wet and drying' found in basic cuir bouilli treatments.
I've read the report. The hypothesis has been "mooted" with absolutely no evidence to back it up. It is impossible to tell whether 2000 year old leather has been artificially hardened or whether it's current state is a natural process that comes from being buried for millennia.
Quote:I have just come across this:
"In 1278 for a tournament in Windsor 38 cuirasses of cuir boulli were made by Milo the Currier: he was supplied with ‘Carda’ canvas to line them with."
The only time leather armour is mentioned in regards to tournaments is when those tournaments used wooden boffers instead of real weapons. All other leather armour in medieval Western Europe was worn over mail.
The Irish shield was of moulded leather made as a protection from weapons. The Medieval cuirasses were made of moulded leather and textile - these are the important points.
No Roman muscle cuirass has been unearthed to date. Earlier Italian examples were made of bronze and the Vergina tomb cuirass indicates that iron cuirasses composed of large plates were capable of being made, so Roman iron muscle cuirasses would be possible. However, given the evidence, or lack of it, leather muscle cuirasses are equally possible.
All my arguments have been made to show that other cultures and times produced protective garments or shields from moulded leather or leather and textile. To dismiss out of hand the possibility that the Romans could have also used such material to make a muscle cuirass is simply illogical. Furthermore, to ridicule this possibility is deeply unhelpful and is based not on any primary evidence (not until all possible methods of reconstruction have been exhausted) but on personal conviction or prejudice.
Martin
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Quote:No Roman muscle cuirass has been unearthed to date. .
Yes there has; more than one. They are all metal.
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Have they been fully published? I know of one from Georgia whose authenticity has been challenged.
Whether or not Roman metal muscle cuirasses exist has no real bearing on the logic of my argument, which you have not addressed in any meaningful way.
Martin
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There is no way to respond to it. By your logic, If someone once used them sometime, somewhere, then the Romans could have used them too.
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Although you present a good Argument for its use Urselius, I have to agree that it was not used. Because the only extant examples of Musculata are Iron and Bronze, and furthermore that many depictions of Musculata are Pitted to be Classicized representations of Chainmail or Scale, that is the evidence that disproves the use of Leather Musculata (personally I think Metal Musculata was not used either) for me. This foundation is further built upon by modern tests that show not only was it completely ineffective against weapons, but to make it effective you would have to make it thicker and heavier than something like chainmail, which also impairs flexibility. The use of leather armor in the medieval era corresponds as either as practice armor or as an item worn over/under chainmail.
The only known find of leather armor from the roman era is the Dura Europos Cuisse, which as far as I know was also found on a soldier with fragments of Maile that he was wearing. Personally, I would wear it for style, I think it looks kind of cool, and would protect my thighs from my Chainmail.
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I do have to wonder if a leather musculata Was made and worn over chainmail. If it was it had to have been very much later, I could see the Byzantine Emperor's Guards wearing such a thing, but only for dress.....NOT for combat and Not in the Early-late Imperiate. In the meantime, let's just agree to disagree in a POLITE way, else we have the Moderator will be on our backs.
Larry (Vitruvius) Mager
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Well, maybe for parade purposes, but it completely negates the point of chainmail, which is flexibility.
Some time in the 5th century, the Eastern (and possibly the Western) Romans made a big switch to using a lot more Metal Lamellar, probably because it was more affordable and offered decent protection. It had also been introduced by the Huns and Alans at this point, if it didn't exist in the Army before. Lamellar is generally more flexible than scale male, cheaper, and easier to produce. I think it is likely this would allow for some class in-between unarmored specialists like Lanciarii, and Armored Heavy Infantry, a sort of Medium infantry, as they could be armored but still retain a lot of mobility. It had already been proven very useful for speedy horse-archers.
Depictions of it worn over Chainmail could indicate that maybe the depictions you are referring to were actually Lamellar (which is on a leather backing) over Chainmail rather than Musculata.
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Once again, Mi Magister, I totally agree. I tend to think that aa leather musculata was worn over chain ONLY as a form of Dressuniform for the palace guards.
Thanks, My Friend....yet again. If You are ever going to be in the Dayton-Fairborn Ohio area, Please let Jaqui and I know so we can put You up for Your stay!!!!!!
Salvete, Larry (Vitruvius) Mager
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Quote:Well, maybe for parade purposes, but it completely negates the point of chainmail, which is flexibility.
That is precisely why it was worn in medieval Europe. The hardened leather acts as a ballistic shell to reduce the blunt trauma on the mail underneath. By the 13th-14th century, coats of plates and padded jacks were used instead.
FWIW the earliest mention of "cuirbouilli" in any text is the Chanson d'Antioche, which was written in 1180 but it describes events that occurred in the first crusade, so this type of armour could conceiveably be pushed back to the 11th century. There are no textual sources and no archaeological sources to suggest that it was used any earlier than this in Western Europe.
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Quote:There is no way to respond to it. By your logic, If someone once used them sometime, somewhere, then the Romans could have used them too.
Precisely, though the logic is not mine - Aristotle would have recognised it.
Martin
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