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Female reenactors as soldiers?
#91
I can cope with opinions that are politically, logically and legally incorrect.

But I don't like impoliteness.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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#92
You share the vast majority view, John. Not many people like impoliteness, particularly in public.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#93
okay, you want to make me feel guilty because I used a word like travesty. I looked for the modern definition of this term in the meantime and in English it's indeed a harsher word than in my language (where Travesty-Show usually refers to something where a guy plays the role of some diva).
--- Marcus F. ---
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#94
Quote:okay, you want to make me feel guilty because I used a word like travesty. I looked for the modern definition of this term in the meantime and in English it's indeed a harsher word than in my language (where Travesty-Show usually refers to something where a guy plays the role of some diva).

Something like that, yes. You're not the first one in this topic to disagree with the concept of female reenactors portraying male roles, and I've never said a word against them. But you were, as far as I've noticed, the first one to say so this rudely. I'm not fighting for a politicaly correct debate. I'm hoping for a polite one.
Appius Solanius Pertinax
a.k.a. Martin Zdansky
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#95
[moderator mode]Ok, let the various tempers cool off, now. Most of the percieived impoliteness/rudeness stemmed from Marcus' mistranslation of the word.
That's something that can and will happen on an international forum , where members have to comment in a language that's not teir first one.[moderator mode/]


Back to topic.

Myself, I have nothing against female member playing male roles. If you can disguise the female into a soldier, so much the better. After all, most of us do this for fun and that's what it's meant to be.

But I must also agree up to a point with Marcus, in the sense that at some event there will be a paying audience, who expect to see authenticity up to a degree. And I've also watched some groups (not Roman groups) displaying females in close-fitting uniform with long hair, not even attempting to disguise anything. :?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#96
I think it is good that we have a broad spectrum of groups with differing attitudes. The ladies of Comitatus should be justly praised for their dedication.

Interestingly, I have met two male reenactors that portray women, one British, one German. Without any offence intended, neither really looked like women (in my opinion), but one in particular took his research very seriously, and knew more about Roman clothing than 99% of the male Roman re-enactors I have ever met. It is interesting that despite having the opportunity for stamping about in shiny armour, this man chose instead to immerse himself in the study and reconstruction of period craft skills.
I have a great respect for those who re-enact civilian roles with rigour and imagination.

At the same time, I think the stance of groups that do not encourage women in the ranks should also be respected. There is room enough in this hobby for all of us.
Events organisers, members of the public and potential recruits should be free to embrace whichever group/s ethos appeals to them most.
Tim Edwards
Leg II Avg (UK)
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiiavg.org.uk">http://www.legiiavg.org.uk
<a class="postlink" href="http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com">http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com
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#97
Avete,
Well... I portray the Praetorian soldier (Tesserarius) in our group (my military tribune impression is in progres). I wear bracae and leg-wraps, two tunics, subarmalis and an armor (lorica hamata or segmentata) and also a helmet (I am going to purchase also the Greaves) You haveto stay really close to me to spot me as woman. I have short hair and my frriends say that I am looking like a young man :-) ) Yes, I am little bit smaller than they, but....

I have no problem with female soldiers but if they want to be realist as well as possible, they have to push for it. I also do not like those, who portray the soldier and have tight clothing, long hair etc.

I know (and also accept) that many people do not like female reenactors as soldiers - It is theyr right. My oppinion is, that the reenactment is primarily our hobby and we want toenjoy it.

I can say, that my impression is quite quality (as well as possible for my wallet). Nevertheless, however, no matter how good is the impression, beeing woman is enought to be the problem. Most of the European events are forbidden for me as the soldier. And It is a bit pitty.

Did I understand correctly, that you met two male reenactors as women? Why not :-) )

valete and regards
Radka Hlavacova A.K.A Titvs Iventivs Martivs
Tesserarivs Legio IIII FF
Castra Romana, Czech republic
"Concordia militvm"
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#98
From The Times and Discovery News
December 22, 2004
Women warriors from Amazon fought for Britain's Roman army

By Lewis Smith

The remains of two Amazon warriors serving with the Roman army in Britain have been discovered in a cemetery that has astonished archaeologists.
Women soldiers were previously unknown in the Roman army in Britain and the find at Brougham in Cumbria will force a reappraisal of their role in 3rd-century society.
The women are thought to have come from the Danube region of Eastern Europe, which was where the Ancient Greeks said the fearsome Amazon warriors could be found.
The women, believed to have died some time between AD220 and 300, were burnt on pyres upon which were placed their horses and military equipment. The remains were uncovered in the 1960s but full-scale analysis and identification has been possible only since 2000 with technological advances.
The soldiers are believed to have been part of the numerii, a Roman irregular unit, which would have been attached to a legion serving in Britain. Other finds show that their unit originated from the Danubian provinces of Noricum, Pannonia and Ilyria which now form parts of Austria, Hungary and the former Yugoslavia.
Hilary Cool, the director of Barbican Research Associates, which specialises in post- excavation archaeological analysis, said that the remains were the most intriguing aspects of a site that is changing our understanding of Roman burial rites.
“It seems highly probable that we have a unit raised in the Danubian lands and transferred to Britain,” she says in British Archaeology.
“Though the numerii are generally referred to as irregular units, they are not thought of as having women among their ranks. However, the unit came from the area where the Ancient Greeks placed the origin of women warriors called Amazons. Could the numerii be even more irregular than anyone has ever dreamt?”
The cemetery at Brougham served a fort and the civilian settlement of Brocavum in the 3rd century and analysis of the remains of more than 180 people showed that everybody’s ashes were buried there. Archaeologists have been able to determine the ages and gender of the dead and to build up a detailed picture of Roman funerals in Brougham.
One of the sets of women warrior’s remains were found with the burnt remnants of animals. Bone veneer, used to decorate boxes, was also found alongside evidence of a sword scabbard and red pottery. The possessions suggest that she was of high status and her age has been estimated at between 20 and 40 years old. The other woman, thought to be between 21 and 45, was buried with a silver bowl, a sword scabbard, bone veneer and ivory.
Another researcher, Pitts, agreed with Cool's assessment.
He told Discovery News, "If two men had been found next to the horses, no one would question that these individuals were cavalrymen. On the face of it, the evidence is quite convincing that these women served as members of the Roman cavalry, and they may very well have been Amazons."
The Greek historian Herodotus (484-430/420 B.C.) and the Greek epic poet Homer both wrote about Amazon women. Herodotus described them as "killers of men" and Homer associated them with the word "antianeira," which means "those who fight like men."
According to Greek legend, the Amazons formed their own independent kingdom under the rule of Queen Hippolyta, which means "she who lets her horses loose." The women supposedly fought on horseback with swords, bows and arrows, and double-sided axes. Mythology links them to the reign of Alexander the Great and to the armies of Pompey.
Another recent excavation may provide additional evidence for their existence. At a burial mound at Pokrovka in Russia, archaeologists unearthed the 2,500-year-old remains of women dressed in full battle regalia. Weapons rested alongside their bones. One female skeleton had permanently bowed legs, which researchers believe suggests that she spent much of her life on horseback. Another woman found at the site, who may have died in battle, was found with an arrowhead lodged in her chest.
For now, it remains unclear how the Roman warriors found at Cumbria met their final end before they were cremated.

I am kind of stuck here in America for the moment but if anyone can check on this in England I would greatly appreciate it!!! Big Grin
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
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#99
Yeah, It is really interesting! Good news for me :-) -) )

Thank you for this wonderfull information :-) )

regards
Radka Hlavacova A.K.A Titvs Iventivs Martivs
Tesserarivs Legio IIII FF
Castra Romana, Czech republic
"Concordia militvm"
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Quote: I am kind of stuck here in America for the moment but if anyone can check on this in England I would greatly appreciate it!!! Big Grin

Check on what? It's fairly old news. I've got the site report from Brougham and can post images of the finds if you're interested but the facts are pretty much as stated (if you can pick them out from the hyperbole). The 'scabbard remains' are bone sliders. That's it. No sword remains. So, whilst it's possible to speculate that these two women had a military role in a cavalry unit, it's not proof of anything much.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
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Check on what? It's fairly old news.

As a newbie to web surfing in general I fully appreciate shortcuts or pointers to find the good stuff. I look constantly for good articles but am still just one man across an ocean with very limited knowledge of how the internet works. Besides many people like easy references.
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
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Quote:As a newbie to web surfing in general I fully appreciate shortcuts or pointers to find the good stuff.


Here you go then:-
link from old RAT
link from old RAT

And

[url:c6nk443y]http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba80/feat3.shtml[/url]
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
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