linothorax and other white cuirases

[Thomas V.]

The hinges work as a closing device {..]. As you can see in the images I attach from a bronce cuirass, they use big hinges in both sides, with bolts that can be removed.

Hinges equiped with a removable bolt could indeed work as a closing device. In the article I posted, the author even suggests that: The connecting hinges would be located on one side and the closing hinges on the other.

In the Augustus sculpture, the door mechanism is in the shoulders, with two hinges, not in the sides that just work as a closing mechanism.

The shoulder flaps have a hinge and the left side of the cuirass also shows a hinge. Take a look at the picture posted by Gaius Varro.

Will be impossible to open the cuirass with hinges in the shoulders and in the sides.

Bollocks. If you want to open/close the Prima Porta cuirass, you first need to fold back the shoulder flaps. The hinges of the two shoulder flaps enable you to fold the flaps back.

The Priima Porta arrangement is sugesting a much lighter cuirass.

In the first post of the thread you wrote that some of the roman muscle cuirasses were flexible, jointless and displaying sleeves. Why would an armour that is so flexible that the 'cap sleeve effect' can be achieved (and therefore as flexible as chainmail) even need hinges? I am aware that the Prima Porta cuiras doesn't has such sleeves, but as you claim it suggested a ligther cuirass, I assume that you think of the Prima Porta cuirass as an example for your musculata concept ( clued linen, so flexible that a 'cap sleeve effect' could be achieved). First you used the absence of joints as an argument for a muscle cuirass made out of glued linen and know you use the presence of a joint as an argumen, so you are condtradicting yourself.

Speaking of glued linen:

There is only one way that makes possible to create a musculata armour wth flexible shoulders, and this will be with glue and linen in a mold, - using the right glue..

If glued linen allows one to achieve flexible shoulders, why didn't Aldrete's linothorax cuirasses show the 'cap sleeve effect'?

[Xavi]

Iconographical evidence Is the only thing We have. And interpreting it helps to know what We are looking for.

[Dan Howard]

Iconographical evidence Is the only thing We have. And interpreting it helps to know what We are looking for.

We can't interpret it unless we have physical examples or textual descriptions to help narrow down the options. Otherwise all the various interpretations have to be given equal probablility of being correct.

[Thomas V.]

You will agree that is very extrange to have hinges just in one side. The weight of a musculata is close to 20 kg.

It is not strange to have a hinge only on one side of a cuirass. It is normal.

Even if it was strange: BOTH sides of the prima porta cuirass seem to be equipped with hinges.

Left side (wearer's perspective): [hide]http://cdn.romanarmytalk.com/media/kunena/attachments/14449/PrimaPortaRightSide.jpg[/hide].

Rigth side (wearer's perspective): [hide]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/6407191119_907c9ed116.jpg[/hide].

Both sides: [hide]http://www.skulpturhalle.ch/sammlung/highlights/2004/07/panzerrelief.jpg[/hide].

[Dan Howard]

Assuming that the sculptor is depicting the armour as it actually looked then it is one of the examples where the hinge (possibly both hinges) has a removable pin. Why is it so hard to believe that these cuirasses are made of metal?

[Youngster]

Xavi, I don't even think your argument are for real real anymore. First you posted a picture of the left side of the prima porta and said that it looked like fabric. Then I posted the hinges on the right side and the hinges on the shoulders and you didn't respond. Then you claimed that that a metal cuirass had to have hinges on both sides, even though the one you had posted before used ring ties. Now you are saying that hinges are a problem for a metal cuirass, even though you said they were a requirement before?

I'm sorry Xavi, but this is not just a language problem you must be actively ignoring everyone's posts, or just being intentionally dense. I for one won't engage in this debate any longer. Dan and many other forum members have a great wealth of information about linen armor, if you would only listen! Instead, you have made nonsense point in response to genuine attempts to engage. I've had enough.

[Xavi]

Thanks to Thomas photos and drawings, is more clear that this are no hinges. A hinge needs clear space over to introduce the pins.
In the pictures you can see clearly that there is no espace, and that the border of the cuirass comes out through the middle of the "hinge". The lace tied up is what we see joining the borders of the cuirass, like a shoe lace.

You can see that in this picture the space is required, hinge must be over the border :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...icer_2.JPG

http://cdn.romanarmytalk.com/media/kunen...uirass.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/8...7ce2b1.jpg

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecat...lot.9.html

The pictures of Porta there is no space for pinning:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/64071...9ed116.jpg

Also this will explain the lonely lace in the armpit.

[Xavi]

Gaius
I did replay pointing that is very extrange that they have hinges just in one side because all the metal cuirasses pictures show them in both sides.

In the picture I posted you can see the ring ties has hinges too, please look at the picture better:

http://33.media.tumblr.com/af2f0a1ac4c41...1_1280.jpg

I´m sorry that you get upset, but things I post and say aren´t to upset anyone, unless people who get enoy by different points of view.

[Xavi]

This image has been painted acording the pigments remainding in the original sculpture. As you can read in the article:

http://www.digitalsculpture.org/augustus/liverani.html

Seems that they interpretation of the closing mechanism is made by a red lace as you can see here.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HPaXWrGG0to/UG...4small.jpg

[Dan Howard]

I can't see how any of this is relevant. Metal armour could be closed either with a fixed pin, straps, lacing, or a hinge with a removable pin. Stop looking at sculptures. Go look at real armour

[Alexand96]

Dan, you've touched on the what I think is the true nerve of the issue. I don't think the argument should really be "the leather/linen muscled cuirass vs. metal" anymore - it's really a debate about whether the Roman muscled cuirass was armor or a costume/parade piece.

As I've previously stated, I believe, after having spent hundreds (if not more) of hours studying Roman artistic interpretations, I've concluded (by my own standards at least), that it is all quite subjective - you'll get nothing solid from this pursuit alone, Xavi. I wish it were different. There is no smoking gun to be found here. However, when corroborated with archaeological evidence, or even textual evidence, I think we can see how the artist got from point A to point B, and perhaps view such items in use within a social context. So there is some value, yes. Just not enough to conjure items depicted out of thin air.

If you really go down the "costume/parade armor" hole that I believe you're unknowingly arguing for, you're really quite lost. Anything contemporary that was used in the Roman world would suffice at that point....why not an emperor wearing a muscled cuirass woven out of fine silks or carved out of solid marble? Despite what you might think, you have no way to refute such an argument, because it is not based upon any rigorous scientific standards. Therefore it is useless.

[Xavi]

Hi Dan
The reason why is relevant is weight.
All Greek a Roman Musculata armours has hinges, also later (XIV-XVI) armour, because is a solid way to close them, and to avoid shaking.

Even if the weight is lower than I said (I give the weight of a total greek panoplia, I´m afraid), will be close to 4-7 kg depending on thickness reinforcements and decorations. Mount on a horse and see what happens after 20 minutes trotting if it is no properly subjected.

Alexander, you pointed that this were just parade items...Made of what?
Obviously a "propaganda" Item like Prima Porta (and copies shown along the empire) for Romans, who were many of them ex legionaries, would will not be something that lacks realism and combat spirit. Obviously will not show a "fake" cuirass that makes the emperor subject to jokes or mocking.

The cuirass was not a decorative item. Roman generals were killed by the own men more often, than by the enemy.

We do have textual evidence in Suetonius "Linen Lorica" weared by generals.
We do have evidence of a diferent closing mechanism, that will not match a traditional cuirass.
We have references of musculata in white, same color than linen cuirasses, which may be not a coincidence.

I think we have all this in mind to considere linen musculatas as a possible evolution of linen greek cuirasses.

[ValentinianVictrix]

In connection with the Prima Porta cuirasse, everyone appears to have overlooked one important thing about the right hand side of that depiction of armour. If you look more closely you will see that at the top there is a visible bow. look closely again at what people are assuming to be hinges and you will see that they are in fact loops, and in some cases slightly out of line of each other. This is an excellent depiction by the artist showing that in fact the loops are probably leather thongs and that the right side of the armour is held together by a long piece of leather thong which is pulled tight when the cuirasse is worn by the wearer and then tied up at the top like a shoe lace. A very neat and effective way of fastening the cuirasse.

[Dan Howard]

All Greek a Roman Musculata armours has hinges, also later (XIV-XVI) armour, because is a solid way to close them, and to avoid shaking.

This is just plain wrong. I already listed four different ways to fasten these types of armour but there are even more and they all have been found on extant metallic cuirasses. Stop looking at sculptures and start looking at real armour.

[Xavi]

Hi Valentinian
I allready point that is some sort of string or lace in previous messages,:

"Seems that they interpretation of the closing mechanism is made by a red lace as you can see here."

4.bp.blogspot.com/-HPaXWrGG0to/UG58OKTPr....Kuppler_04small.jpg