Jesus discussion

[Comerus Gallus]

Sorry Robert & Marcvs!

I dont want to be arrogant, but,The Word FALSE! its not my own!.

This is a word wich the the Apostles of Jesus did used: Peter, Paul, John.

2Cor. 11:13 ; 11:26

Gal. 2:4

2P. 2:1

1 John 4:1

They used for those who were just that, some false people infiltrated among them lived & learned among cristians e Apostles. :wink:

A good sign of false stuf its the ones who trys to degraded the Messiah, & put him in a position much lower than God,Angels, etc. or of what he really was & his teachings .

Johnny are you refering to the monks & saints who rewrite the bible from time through time?

Well I have to go back to that study again, & look what version of the Bible did survived almost entiredly to our time, I think of some latin or greek version, e one in aramaik? I think one from Egypt too...Gosh :roll:

Talk later...

Gioi :wink:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

So? TN, what is your point?

in my view you are just miffed because of the fact we do not disregard the gnostic gospels as a possible truth.

and Comerus....... according to the Jewish official religion, and priests of the time Jesus Crist was a FALSE prophet, and a blasphemer, and all his followers were believing BS...........

M.VIB.M.

[Comerus Gallus]

So? TN, what is your point?

in my views you are just miffed because of the fact we do not disregard the gnostic gospels as a possible truth.

and Comerus....... according to the Jewish official religion, and priests of the time Jesus Crist was a FALSE prophet, and a blasphemer, and all his followers were believing BS...........

M.VIB.M.

Well this is just about personal believe.

I cant enter to your door if you dont let me... & you wouldn't enter through my door if I dont let you.

You had declared that you are a Gnostic believer, that is personal we shall respect that, but any can have free opinion....

Jesus always spoke openly & he wasn't afraid to speak & teach in the presence of Jewish liders, only he hide a bit some times, because it wasnt jet his hour to die.... He openly called the some Jewish autorities Hipocrits, because they teached & demanded from people to do of what they really didn't do themselves.... They plot & accused Jesus falsely, & secretely wich was again their own laws.

If the Jewish autorities didnt belived that Jesus was the Messiah it was their own problem & becuse they realy not understud the Scriptures;

The jelaouse Jewish liders who stated that not Prophet had ever comes from Nazareth, its because their ignorance of the scriptures. I think it was a minor prophet wich did come and Jesus.

The prohpecy of the Messiah on Isaiah 11: state that the Messiah wil come from Nazareth but in our own non hebrew translation placed the other synonimus name;

vs 1. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a BRANCH (Jesus) shall grow out of his roots:

In Heb. netser (branch) can derivate from the name Nazareth wich Jesus was called Nazarenus wich meant Man of Nazareth u Man of the Branch.

there are many other signs wich confir him as the one! :wink:


...... this was moslty of jelousy & becuse they didn't understud his own way to talk, they hate him becuase he always sed the true evil about them, & they didn't want to changed that. Jews ask for miracles to belive, but even doin that they didnt want to belive.... To short this, this anyway has to happened, not body could changed that only Jesus own choice could chaged that, Jesus must die!... it was God's own plan not human plan, it was for our own good. The OT can teach you about the things the Messiah must encounter, do etc.


But talking of who really was a bad guy, Jesus or them, that only you can juge it through your knowledge.

Now this was the words of one of the most prestigious Jewish Dr of the Law called Gamaliel:

Reed Act 5:34-42.
vs 34. Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the Law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35. And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

36. For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody: to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many obeyed him, were dispersed.
38. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39. But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

[Robert Vermaat]

Well, since the Gnostics and other writings originated only long after those things were written, it can only be a matter of personal opinion that these writings referred to them.

And personal opinion is only that; personal opinion - it does not rest on proof, only on interpretation. You list of quotes from the Bible do not refer to the Gnostics, they are only predictions, predictions that can refer to to anything and anyone that you choose them to refer to.
It can't be proven that these references have anything to do with the Gnostic writings, or any other writings and gospels that were stricken from the collection of early Christian writing that lastly made it into the New Testament.

Therefore I, again, object to the use of the word 'false'. This negative judgement is only based on personal opinion and therefore it should not be used in this forum.

This is your moderator speaking.

[D B Campbell]

so Judas could have been a member of the sicarii!! that makes it even more interesting! where has that been written

I believe the "zealot" theories all derive from the work of the late S.G.F. Brandon, writing in the 1960s. One of his books (which I remember enjoying many years ago when I was interested in this topic) is reviewed here.

[Comerus Gallus]

Well, since the Gnostics and other writings originated only long after those things were written, it can only be a matter of personal opinion that these writings referred to them.

And personal opinion is only that; personal opinion - it does not rest on proof, only on interpretation. You list of quotes from the Bible do not refer to the Gnostics, they are only predictions, predictions that can refer to to anything and anyone that you choose them to refer to.
It can't be proven that these references have anything to do with the Gnostic writings, or any other writings and gospels that were stricken from the collection of early Christian writing that lastly made it into the New Testament.

Therefore I, again, object to the use of the word 'false'. This negative judgement is only based on personal opinion and therefore it should not be used in this forum.

This is your moderator speaking.

Well I guess this topic shouldn't be opened first of all.

You cant avoid some dangering matters, like opinions, believe, proof etc.

This is not meant for every body, & I think this topic can be eternal if it permited dont you think?

Forgive me if that word was offensive!, we all had use personal opinion & post it here! ... you have posting of other member dislaiking other gospel quotations & posting diferent opinions about it :lol: ...

Just check how this Topic beggins & ended up until now,
You will juge if was a good idea to opened


Yes my Bible quotation didnt didnt refered to the Gnostic, but Gnostisim contrast with the teaching of the Bible, so if the one is blended both thing & it contrast one another, one of the both cant be taken in consideration... So the word I guess still fit but it was a dangerus statement... So my apologize again

Also if we tryed to proof what is the diference between the Gnostic & the Testaments & interpretate both ways, could it be a dangerous matter...

You would have people regarding best one more thing than the other.

So again this is about preferance of ways & 0pinions, I bet we will end up with postin conclutions, & the two above....


So the Jesus OT was not a good idea even if its on OT.... You know that Jesus is a controversial matter we just cant avoid it! :lol:


Regards!

Gioi

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Comerus, first of all let me explain to you i am NOT a gnostic believer as you state in your posting. It is obvious you have not really read my other postings, not that that matters a great deal to me, but still, i'd like to make that perfectly clear.

Secondly, You are talking about the dangers of a Jesus discussion, where clearly most of us do not see any danger, but see a scientifically valuable discussion about the historical Jesus, compared to all kinds of opinions about him in the ancient world. also, we are deducting all possibilities on how Christianity has become the dominant religion in the western hemisphere, and how it has evolved through the ages.

didnt know you meant moderator dangers.........

[Remark removed]

we are having a scientific discussion here. people of any belief may and are welcome to participate. We do not see any danger in discussing Jesus, wether he was son of any god, or the son of a Jewish woman, who made love with her husband and got pregnant.

Bible quotes to prove something are in itself not proof of anything. they just mean that somewhere in time, and in this instance the Thora, someone wrote prophecies which he believed to be god given. Whether or not they are indeed true remains to be seen.

According to Nostradamus the world would end about 1998...
we are still here.

you can believe in something, for which i dont, and wont ridicule you,
or you can look at it scientifically.
we try to do both, by making both sides give their comments.

faith does not come in.
it is a choice you alone can make.

The big problem is when faith becomes dogma, and dogma becomes doctrine.
because when that happens, all debate is silenced.

many religions have grown through debate.

Only intolerant, I know better and you will be damned forever religions are stuck in their own hollow rhetoric, and will end in people trying to make a statement in the form of:

a: crusades and persecutions, and war
b: suicide bomb attacks, terrorism and what have you.

Only through debate do we grow.

Unfortunately i cannot read anything in your postings which remotely gives me the feeling you would really want to debate.

so either participate in the discussion with an open mind, or dont.

MARCvS VIBIvS MAvRINvS

[Robert Vermaat]

No problem Gioi.

[Spurius]

I do want to say that I have found this discussion to be very helpful to me. I have been learning - learning things I did not know and taking a more in-depth look into some matters I had assumed I already knew enough about.

The fact that this touches on beliefs makes it sensitive at times, but I do want to thank people for commenting in what I see (generally speaking) to be an educated, friendly, and non-offensive manner.

In the past few days I have been enlightened to more resource material out there, and have been made aware of other historical religions and beliefs which I was only vaguely aware of, at best.

I have seen some excellent postings by educated individuals who want to share their research for the sake of letting others have a deeper understanding of the historical Jesus, historical Christianity, and the other beliefs of the time which may or may not have been influenced (or influential) to it.

What we can do, is to continue to post the facts as we understand them from research. When we infer conclusions then sensitivities seem to be touched upon. I accept that when this happens it is someone's genuine perspective, and perspectives differ. I accept each of your opinions and I respect that you have come to different conclusions based on the evidence. I also prefer to look at the facts before and draw my own conclusions individually, it is a right I believe we are all entitled to. I do not believe anyone wishes to insult another's opinions and beliefs here, yet rather I think we all want to come to a greater understanding of the issues we discuss.

My thanks to those who have shared of their research and understanding.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Well spoken Spurius!!

LAUDES!!!!

M.VIB.M.

[Arthes]

thirdly, I am sorry to have to say this, but your English is the worst English I have ever seen. According to your profile you are from the United States, but unless you are handicapped by dyslexia, I do not believe you actually are. Your English to me sounds more like African English i read in 419 letters. No this is not intended insulting, but:

Comerus/Gioi's family is Spanish speaking he tries very hard with his English....and I think that comment is rather insulting...

[Johnny Shumate]

Marcus, lighten up on Gioi. I think you're the one that is "miffed". So chill out dude..!

".....gnostic gospels as a possible truth. " No, the gnostic gospels are impossible truth.

Johnny

[Comerus Gallus]

Jesus Christ! what a mess I have don here! :lol:

Sorry that I can't express myself better when my wife is not at home!

Marcus as Arthes stated, I'm not American, English its not my language, but that would not stop me from try it to speak it, I will master it with more practice...

Thanks I know my english is very amusing; a mixture of Yoda the Jedi? :roll: ... wich make me very unique, at the same time this make some people to like me! :wink:

I shouldn't say this now because I see no enemy in you!...

But let me say this in my ancestral Laconian speech:

I'm rather better in the art of god Ares, than in the art of god of eloquence Apollo.... Just to explain.

Why acussed me of boldly? hock: ...And yes; I had read previous posting of you & few other posting of you on other topics, you seems to be a person that its not afraid to express boldly statement about something you dont like!... Dont be blind. Not for this I dared to called you a Gnostic wich it was accidently.

Sadly you dont like somebody to responded you in your own boldly language.... I'm not making fun of you, I'm accidently reconsidering this! hock: ...

Sincerly I have nothing personal with you, I mistaken you with a Gnostic person, because your own reaction maked me thought that. Should I apologize?...Hmmm!... We now are even.

The danger was just, that the topic in my opinion could be killed by the moderators... wich previously had made already & in this topic some warrning posting.

And yes not everybody like Jesus! :lol:


I'm tire now... talk later... have a good day Marcus! :wink:

Arthes & Johnny!;...Thanks!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Remark removed.

thank you for the explanation.

now we can resume the discussion, no hard feelings. :lol:

I have put the nails back in the tool box, the hammer in the shed, and the wooden beams in the garden...

:lol:

The moderatorzz will only lock this discussion if we talk about present day christianity or other present day religions.

M.VIB.M.

[Robert Vermaat]

OK folks, nicely resolved.