How to portray a Spartan king from the classical era?

[hoplite14gr]

If other muscisians were not Talthybiadae they would carry their Mora emblem.

Horned horse!!! Where did you find that?

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Then I gues the Hoplites if they would act as musicians would wear the Aspis on their back in some sort of way?

On the horned horse, I found it in this Sparta faction Preview of the modification Roma Surrectum 2:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=142035

Here is a picture portraying it:



Here is a quote about it:

They wear a chalkidian helmet but with a difference. Their cheekguards are shaped as a horned horse. Peculiar as this animal may appear it isn’t exactly so. The horses are to honour the “hippeis” of Sparta, the original highest honorary title that a Spartan could attain (and no relation to present day horsemen called also hippeis). The horns are there to signify the sacrificed rams that “logades” sacrificed before battle. Upon their burning carcases they would take an oath to replace their carcasses with their own should they abandon the line in battle. It is those oaths that 300 “logades” or “oath takers” made prior to leaving with their King long ago for a place called Hot gates. Promachoi honour both with their helmet.

Also on those Argive emblems, it says that the two different versions of it, the black and white ones, stood for the Dorians and Acheans, I'm wondering which colour stood for which people as that isn't mentioned?

[hoplite14gr]

Doreans had a reputation for austerity. Therefore Giorgos and I belive that the black snakes would represent the 3 Doric tribes of Argos and the golden snakes the two Achean tribes Inachoi and Iphasioi

Horned horse!!!! The game designer mixed the rams appearing in some artwork and tried to create a sensation to sell the game.
In reality the mora of Sparta proper would wear an assortment of corinthian helmets with differnt crest colors and slight variation of the gorgoneion for each hoplite.

Artists tend to exagerate what they see especialy if the marketing department screams for results :twisted:
Do not ry for historical accuracy in various gqmes

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Ok thanks!

It isn't really for a game, its more a modification of a game, and the developpers of that claimed their modification to be historically accurate which made me really wonder about a few things they said. hock:

Also I've heard that the Neodamodeis were Helots and Mothaxes who received full citizen rights and got a piece of land to work on themselves, is this true? And seeing that they got full citizen rights would their children enter the agoge and eventually become full Spartans?

[hoplite14gr]

I amire the game engineers artwork. But if you see in their page the emblem of Phigalia posing as a Spartan emblem it makes you wonder about their level of research.

Considering that spartan were forced to give citizen rights to increase their dwindling manpower it is hliy unlikely that they would let their army decrease by withdrawing given rights ecpecialy after mothakes and nodamotheis proved themselves in battle.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Yes, they do tend to go for the what they see as gameplay choice, for me historical accuracy makes for a great game!

I see, would this mean that the children of Neodamodeis would be treated as full Spartans(What I mean is not seen as Neodamodeis but seen as Spartans from now!) and go trough the Agoge and have Helots of their own? And I gues Neodamodeis wouldn't have to join the Sysittia but their children probably would?

One more thing I'm wondering about, when the Thebans broke through the Spartans after Leuktra and Mantinea apparantly 4000 Helots sprung up to defend Sparta.

Were Helot Hoplites and Neodamodeis Hoplites two different things?

[hoplite14gr]

Having them join syssitia was an easy way to keep them in check.
Their children assuminig that were healthy they would be encouraged to enter the "agoge".

Assunimg you were e helot; Would you not take up arms if only to escape being killed by the Crypteia.
After all Thebans will leave and you will face the homioi again. What better than join them?
Enfranchised helots would be Neodamodeis = new citizens
Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for the reply!

I see, it would make sense yes.

So that means that when the Thebans invaded Sparta gained 4000 new citizens?

I'm also wondering about another thing, Helots would probably use javelins and slings to fight. I'm wondering on the Mothaxes and Hypomeiones, how would they fight in a battle?

And one other thing, would a Hypomeiones be able to gain citizenship if he prooved himself worthy in battle?

[PMBardunias]

I just thought I'd post to review the different social ranks in Sparta, because they can be hard to tell apart.

Homoioi- "peers", fully enfranchised Spartan citizens who are eligible for election to the Ephorate, etc. This status could be lost through cowardice in battle, but was mostly lost through poverty. If a Spartan could not pay his mess-fees to his syssitia.

Hypomeiones- Homoioi or the descendants of homoioi who lost their citizen status as described above. Cinadon, who famously planned a revolt of the underclasses against the homoioi, was a powerful fellow within the Spartan system.

Mothakes- These were either bastard children of Homoioi or the children of Hypomeniones that were sponsored by Homoioi to attend the agoge. Lysander and Gylippus were mothakes and very powerful and successful commanders.

Neodamodeis- Enfranchised helots. Generally the helots had to buy their citizenship, so if they were wealthy enough to do that they surely could meet the requirements of Syssitia fees. It is an odd feature of Spartan society that helots could be wealthy, perhaps moreso than poor citizens.

Helots- Serfs more than slaves. They were "owned" by the state and not individual spartans, though they served on Kleroi (farming estates).

Periokoi- "locals" These were all of the people living in the large towns and small cities within the borders of Lakonia that were not subjigated as serfs or incorperated into Sparta itself as Amyclae was. Among this middle class were many artists and wealthy traders- since Spartiates could be neither.

Women- While not a class per se, it would be a disservice not to mention that women in Sparta had far more influence in the doings of their society than any women who were not members of royal familes in the ancient world. Because they could own land and land ownership was the one avenue opened to Spartan homoioi (other than plunder or graft), they had political power even though they could not vote themselves. We often see powerful women wrapped up in the political squabbles at Sparta.

[hoplite14gr]

As Paul said Mothakes could be sponcored and they were accepted as asolution to manpower problems.
Hypomeiones could regain status if they could pay their dues again.
Neodamodeis could start a new family and take a piece of land were the household had lost its male mebers or a piece of land was aquired from the ememy (i.e Lepreo from the Heleians).
It is interesting that Hypomeiones and Neodamodeis starting beoming an issue durinthe Peloponessian War and after.
Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Hypomeiones could regain status if they could pay their dues again.

Do you know the process to becoming a citizen again? Is there an ancient reference for this? At the least they would have to: 1) become wealthy enough to pay their dues- presumably buying land, and 2) join a Syssitia. Presumably they cannot simply say "here's my back dues" and walk back into their old syssita without a vote. The whole process by which Spartiate status can be lost and regained is fascinating, but I don't think much is known. Any information you have is welcome.

It should be obvious to those reading that this system was the Achille's heel of Sparta, since it was for most of the period far easier to lose Spartiate status than gain it. WHat do you do if you are a Spartiate with just enough wealth to pay for Syssitia dues, then you have two sons? Also the only way a Spartan could raise money was to morgage his land. This led to the few very rich families (often women) holding everyone elses morgages or foreclosing on their land.

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks for pointing out Paul.
I will delve in to the Hypomeiones subject looking for details.
Most sources to them are indirect and AD period - Plutarch, Pausanias.
All people confuse the Sparta of 800 to 460 B.C. with the Sparta of 460 B.C to 360 B.C.
Initially the state was not so heavily militarised. The inward tendency was a slow process.

669 B.C the Spartans lost to the Argioves at Hysiai. It was a devastating defeat which lead to the rise of the Ephoroi.
Kinf Pheidon of Argos had a "sacred band" of 5000 hoplites.
Its interesting that the Homioi hoplites were about 5000 too.
In order to match the Argives the homioi were given priviledges in order to be full time soldiers.
Eventually they increased them and dominated the government. Crushing Argos improved their position and consolidated their grip on power. The 460 earthquake started their undoing.

It would be difficult except for a bad crop for a Homoios to become Hypomeion before 460 B.C.
But an Athenian shore raid during the Peloponesian war that destroyed property and abducted or killed helots and perioikoi could have easily made residents of Helos and Pylos hypomeiones.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Though if I remember at Sellasia there were 6000 Spartan citizens, fighting as Phalangites. I believe 2000 of them would be Neodamodeis, the rest would be the original ones and the Hypomeiones. Original ones would be about 700 before Cleomenes III, that makes for about 3300 Hypomeiones at the time.

I'm wondering what exactly caused this mass loss in citizenship(Seeing we had 9000 Spartan citizens when Lycurgus made his changes!), I've heard alot that the earthquake was the cause (gods got yealous hock: ), I'm always wonder how exactly the earthquake influenced things? I've head many Spartans died in the earthquake?

I've also always read that the Hypomeiones were the one thing which the Spartan system had no answer to.


I've read that in the beginning, when a Spartan father got multiple children his land got devided, yet he wasn't forced to do this and in later times only the first born son would get the full land and other children didn't got a piece, and because of this they weren't able to pay, I always believed this was the main reason for them to rise so big.

[hoplite14gr]

The first loss of Citizens was when Epameinondas reinstated the Messenians at the mid 4th century.
That means that the homoi of Pylos, Stenyclaros, and ha<lf of the Limantis Morae lost their lands and became less tha Hypomeones.
Kiss goodby to at least 1500 hoplites. Skiritis became part of Arcadia at the time so goodby 500 more homioi (light infantry specialists mind you!)
The agoge fell in disuse after the time Af Alexander. All the reforms of the hellenistic Spartan rulers were targeting the population of Laconia since Messenia was lost.

The kleroi could not be devided and sold and a kleros was supporting a sizable group of persons.
Spartans too had colonies (Thera, Milos, Taras, Cyrene)to aleviate overpopulation.
And their army grabed Lepreo and Thyrea.

The issue was for the homioi to maintain their grip on power.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

I see, though how does this connect to the earthquake and the date 460 B.C.? After which Sparta went downhill.

So the first mayor loss of citizens was when the Thebans took Messenia and Skiritis from the Spartans, wasn't there a steady decline though before that? I mean at the time of Platae there were 8000 Citizens, when Lycurgus made his changed we have 9000 Citizens.

And I thought that the lochoi of 500 Skiritians were Periokoi class, not Homoioi?!

A Kleroi could not be devided? Ok thanks, weird then that they did allow for Kleroi to be combined instead of giving it to Hypomeiones and the like.