Make your land like ours!

[Robert Vermaat]

Well said, Jim!

[Arthes]

Thats true enough the days of the traditional cockney Mrs Mopp are over.
A lot of African and West Indian workers were brought over here in the 50s to fill in the gaps left by the war, from what I gathered. They filled mainly 'working class' positions and the type of work not many others wanted.
Women who had spent the war years working and earning their keep did not always want to go back to the domestic type of chores either, they wanted to use their new skills.
Then there was the trouble in Ghana with the Asians, I used to work with a lovely Indian lady who bought in her Saris to show us and used me as her model...I felt very feminine! If I remember correctly they had lost their home and large business.
A lot of 'cheap labour' came from places like Indonesia and the Phillipines a few years back and remember the poor Chinese cockle pickers who were all drowned last year.. for the sake of 11 PENCE AN HOUR.
[url:19sdxhht]http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=153882004[/url]
Some of them worked all day for £1 or £5 for a bag of cockles.
[url:19sdxhht]http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5289619-115620,00.html[/url]
Some people give work to illegal immigrants as they feel sorry for them, but most are simply out to make a quick buck at someone elses expense.
But Tarby you are wrong, there are unemployed people in this country who would welcome the change to make a few quid even doing cleaning.
Some of the homeless would probably jump at the chance of this work and even a cramped crowded place to live, rather than in a blanket in a shop doorway and nothing.
A little humour. with a twist.......I overheard a black lady who has been in England for a very long time complain, 'I am sick of all these blacks moving in...' :roll: it's not just us, you see...
'regards
Arthes

[Robert Vermaat]

Some of the homeless would probably jump at the chance of this work and even a cramped crowded place to live, rather than in a blanket in a shop doorway and nothing.

Are you sure? It's not the same over here, many homeless have social problems and have difficulties retaining a job

Arthes\\n[quote]I overheard a black lady who has been in England for a very long time complain, 'I am sick of all these blacks moving in...' /quote]
I'd say she seems integrated well enough!

[Marius_Ursus]

Know what, if someone moves here and can't speak English I couldn't care less. If they can't communicate what they want to say it's their lookout. .

Unless they're in front of you at the checkout, and you can't get through the line because they don't understand their change.

Councillors who take down statues against popular public opinion will be voted out at their next election, and those who promise to put the statue back will be voted in.

In the US, we have a very low voter turnout. This last presidential election we had was the highest number of voters ever, and I think it still only something like 48% of registered voters. Unfortunately, over here anyway, the most popular political practice for the common man is not to vote, then sit around and complain about everything.

Ethnic minorities being helped into the police force is the force's own fault because it was racist to its core - tough luck, and they made their own. To clarify, I've been a victim of violent crime fairly recently and was impressed (a change from my youth), and have friends in the force, but I'm only saying what I'd say to their faces.

Newspapers and programmes love to sensationalise everything - it gets you to put money in their pockets. I know plenty of immigrants here in London and they're top people by and large (I was best man to a mate who married one). The service industries would collapse without them, I am convinced of that, and (some of you aren't gonna like this) many offices, streets, and workplaces would be filthy without (here it comes) immigrants and illegal immigrants. If you don't like that plain simple cold hard fact, I didn't come up with it. Secret life of the office cleaner
Even cleaners working in Whitehall have been found to be illegal immigrants!

"How was it done before all this immigration, though?" you may ask. Simple, the general workforce was cleaner and tidied up after themselves. So, guess who caused the above situation - tough luck. When I have to go to work at 4 or 5am they are everywhere waiting for buses, and I just think "I'm glad I'm not in their situation." The fact is that they do the work at a price no one else wants to do, have pretty miserable lives (these are the ones who are not on our radar, the quiet ones Vorti mentioned), and are then victimised for it.

And before anyone says they're taking jobs from people you know, etc, they're not. And, I don't believe it's actually the Government's fault (employers are supposed to obtain copies of passports, etc): It's the agents, who recruit them abroad through whatever means, and their clients keeping costs at rock bottom.

The immigrants are just trying to eat and have a roof above their heads.

Do you have minimum wage laws in the UK? That's a root problem for the reason why illegals are hired for crap jobs. It's minimum wage and a general feeling of entitlement.

Good lord, I miss my grandparents' generation.

(Edited to change "US" to "UK" in second-to-last paragraph.)

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

As an ex-cop who worked a high crime county near the border, I invite any of you to visit. I will get you a "ride around" for a shift in the El Cerro Mission district and let you make up your own mind on these matters. Otherwise, I wouldn't touch this topic for all the denarii in Byzantium.

Arthes... White Christmas was removed from the local school Holiday Program two days ago because it was "racist", according to the local paper.

Gaius Decius Aquilus
(Ralph Izard)
who reflects on the Christmas carol "Little Drummer Boy". We all know that drummer boys are military, yet the Roman Army did not use drums. Could this refer to an auxilia unit?

[hoplite14gr]

I think we all agree that is wrong for the executive adminstration (government) who does not enforce the law due to political correctness.
Ralf belive me I understand you!
As I said before failure to enforce the law that prohibits unlawful entry leads to exploitation and extermism.
I said because of personal experience I have reason to suspect that the executive adminstration is not "willing" to enforce it.
The party example that Cristina gave, saddly applies in real life civil and private.
I agree that there is nothing wrong with lawful immigration but the abuse of the law with illegal immigration must stop
History is full of examples of unchecked immigration that changed the existance in terms of population or culture by force and after horrific bloodloss.
If I go in a place that people do not like me for any reason it is their right not to like me. If the are not insulting or abusive, thats tolerance. If I try to legaly force them to like me then will possibly react badly an it will definitly make more unpopular. That is why I object ot any law trying to regulate behavior uless it is baked by a referentum.
Kind regards

[Tarbicus]

But Tarby you are wrong, there are unemployed people in this country who would welcome the change to make a few quid even doing cleaning.

Arthes, I'm honestly sorry but I don't think I am.

but most are simply out to make a quick buck at someone elses expense.

There you go, you said it. The agents who get the work off the companies with the premises to be cleaned won't give the jobs to UK nationals because they have too many rights - that's why they commission people abroad to find and hire their workers in many cases. It's the agents and their clients to blame. In all the years I've worked in London I haven't met one single cleaner from the UK, and the agents are raking in the money off exploitation. They won't change that, and it has little to do with whether others are willing to take the job for little money. They want to be able to fire and rip people off without the cost of tribunal or comeback from the authorities. It's the most basic form of exploitation.

Are you sure? It's not the same over here, many homeless have social problems and have difficulties retaining a job

Living in London and working and socialising in the West End I now know a few fairly well, and that's exactly the story I get too. Most had jobs before booze or drugs took a hold at some point, otherwise there were even sadder factors involved.

[Robert Vermaat]

The agents who get the work off the companies with the premises to be cleaned won't give the jobs to UK nationals because they have too many rights - that's why they commission people abroad to find and hire their workers in many cases.

Same over here with greenhouse agriculture, or building sites. Employers either want illegals because they can't find anyone to do it legally (yes, many unemployed are also whining they can't do that work!), or they want them to get more profit. Builders are now so much used to illegal workers or extremely cheap workers from Eastern Europe who seem not to care about their worker's rights (yes, that's former Communist eastern Europe nowadays!), that legal workers are not hired anymore.

I blame all parties involved in this case. Governemnt, employers and employees, as well as Dutch workers who seem a bit spoilt from time to time.. not to their own advantage.

[Arthes]

Do you have minimum wage laws in the UK? That's a root problem for the reason why illegals are hired for crap jobs. It's minimum wage and a general feeling of entitlement.

Yes, we do and in the area I live in it's not illegal immigrants who have to exist on it.....its an average wage :roll:
We have a tiered system with one minimum wage for 16-18, one for 18-21 then full money. Tough if you happen to be 20 with a wife and a couple of kids...!
[url:2xmnvtln]http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/nmw/[/url]
The problem with the illegal immigrants is that they are working for LESS than minimum wage on what is commanly known as 'backhander' money.
No Tax or National Insurance of course, just cash in hand and no questions asked. Of course, if you do a weeks' work and don't get paid, you haven't any proof either, unless your fellow workers back you up.
regards
Arthes

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

WOW! This thread has sure gotten intense(in tents)
Good comments from one and all. Valid points.

Not to get off the subject,but a few posts back
AndyM said something I was wondering about...

Pie & mash?( Like "bubble and squeak")?
Bacon butties? (the Beatles taught me about jam butties)

Sorry,all,was hoping a little levity in the face
of it would be OK. :oops:

[Marius_Ursus]

Do you have minimum wage laws in the UK? That's a root problem for the reason why illegals are hired for crap jobs. It's minimum wage and a general feeling of entitlement.

Yes, we do and in the area I live in it's not illegal immigrants who have to exist on it.....its an average wage :roll:
We have a tiered system with one minimum wage for 16-18, one for 18-21 then full money. Tough if you happen to be 20 with a wife and a couple of kids...!
[url:1laui6rt]http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/nmw/[/url]
The problem with the illegal immigrants is that they are working for LESS than minimum wage on what is commanly known as 'backhander' money.
No Tax or National Insurance of course, just cash in hand and no questions asked. Of course, if you do a weeks' work and don't get paid, you haven't any proof either, unless your fellow workers back you up.
regards
Arthes

That's sort of the situation we have here except there's no minimum wage under 18. The illegals will work for less than minimum wage which is one of the reasons minimum wage shouldn't exist. If employers could pay less and hire more legal workers, there wouldn't be a calmboring for low-paying jobs by those who enter the country under less-than-honorable conditions.

Unfortunately, there is that feeling of entitlement rearing its ugly head. A problem that feeds upon itself has been created in this land, and now even those who will take a minimum wage job will not do it well. You can walk into any fast-food restaurant here and see how dirty it is because those who are willing to take those jobs are high school students who never had to perform hard work and will just quit a job because the manager wants them to mop the bathroom floor.

I feel a tangent coming on...a rant about laziness and lack of pride in one's work because it's "beneath" them, so I'd better stop now.

[hoplite14gr]

True host workers are sometimes too spoilt as Robert suggested but the fact remains -as the Russians say: when you go somewhere, forget your own rules at your home!
But I insist that local laws should be enforced. If you do not like the rules of the house dont pass the door..or the window for that matter!
Plus it is immoral to use the law to force yourself on someone.
To be tolerant is moral to be receptive is personal choice!
Kind regards

[Theodosius the Great]

We have too many laws. You're right, we just need to enforce the ones we have :roll:

The more laws, the less justice -Marcus Tullius Cicero

[DAN OF BRITANNIA]

Well as I see it - I'll vote for any government that leaves me the hell alone.

If they want to take taxes then they should just be concerned with defending us (with a properly equipped & empowered army and police force) , emptying the rubbish/trash, making sure that our hospitals are not rat infested and that our schools actually teach kids something.

All the other stuff about how to think, what to say in public where to not smoke and what to eat is our own damn business.

If they treated us with a bit of respect and like adults they'd know that 99.9% of people will act decently to each other - safe in the knowledge that the police will deal effectively with the 0.1% who don't.

But sadly it seems to be breaking down daily in the UK, and when decent people (tax payers and hard workers) feel threatened either culturally or indeed by criminal acts then they become understandably unreasonable... and in some cases extremists.

Almost daily we are shown how people enter the UK (sometimes from wealthy countries) to have free operations, get state care, in fact some have the cheek to check into UK hospitals, have their babies on our free National Health Service and check out then fly back to their own countries without ever paying any tax contributions... so when our taxes go up due to pressure like this... one can understand the resentment.

And there is a resentment that is building, not only about these issues but that many people are feeling threatened in their own homes but an increasingly lawless and unchecked minority on our streets.

Civilization has an unwritten pact built into it... when you put your faith in your government to defend you and your way of life - you give up the means to defend yourself... when the government is seen not to defend you and your friends/family it is understandable that many people start to deal with situations themselves ....often with the most tragic results!
I'm not suggesting that anyone should do this, but as an observer I can see it happening and I certainly know people that have said that they've done it.

Also people feel that they have less of a voice, especially to protest about unfair legislation or treatment in general.

Sadly last week a girl was arrested in Westminster just for publicly reading the names of dead British soldiers in public.

Whatever one's view of the Iraq war, I think it is a bit rich that we are trying to export democracy to another country... when we seem to be fast losing it here on a daily basis.

I'm not an extremist... you can hear angry conversations on these subjects in most pubs, trains, buses (mainly outside London).

[Tarbicus]

Sadly last week a girl was arrested in Westminster just for publicly reading the names of dead British soldiers in public.

WHAT!!!???? I agree that everyone is being criminalised here through petty bye-laws being enforced by amateur coppers/tax collectors enforcable by criminal conviction.

Also people feel that they have less of a voice, especially to protest about unfair legislation or treatment in general.

True. Agree with pretty much everything there.

safe in the knowledge that the police will deal effectively with the 0.1% who don't.

Seem way too busy generating funds from driving offences or, at the worrying end of the spectrum, criminalising peaceful protesters.

In two recent cases, protesters have been arrested under the 1361 Justices of the Peace Act.

[url:k67c212g]http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1584140,00.html[/url]

Bonkers.