First US Roman Marine Re-enactment Unit founded.

[Kai]

...which is pretty much that of Vegetius, indeed:

"So that the scouting vessels will not be betrayed by brightness, the sails are dyed Venetian blue, similar to the colour of the sea, and the tackle is coloured with the wax that ships are generally coated with. Also the sailors and marines wear Venetia blue coloured clothing so that not only at night, but even in the daytime, they more easily remain unseen while scouting"
(note that the scouting vessels are liburnae, the typical vessel of the Roman river fleets at this time)

However I am afraid the question of camouflage may open up a whole new discussion.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That it may..but it's all part of naval tactics...if the enemy sees you and realises his 5 ships won't stand a chance against you 20 or 30....the sooner he turns and runs for it, the less chance you have of catching him.

[Magnus]

But what vegetius describes is clearly exagerated propaganda, not to mention the fact that it isn't known if he speaks of contemporary or early imperial navies (or even late republic). So you can quote him all you want, but really...what is he talking about??? And in what period of history???

Either way, painting something blue does not make it camouflaged. And don't believe everything you read.

Back to the original discussion...it's quite obvious that both the Legions and Navy used blue.

Sumner has the following evidence (definitive, not speculative) for blue being used by the Legions:

Sextus Pompeius changed his cloak to Blue from the normal red, in Pliny's Natural History.

Excavations at Masada had more than half of 105 wool textiles analysed. Six of these were blue or blue-green.

Encaustic wax portraits, 2nd or 3rd Century (a bit later)...shows legionaries in blue cloaks with white tunica.

Tombstone of T.Flavius Draccus, served in the Ala I Flavia Domitiana Britanica MCR...wearing either a blue tunic or blue cloak.

So what does all of it prove? Really...not much at all. Some naval personnel wore blue, but so did the legions. From what I am reading, blue is not only the providence of the navy.

I personally have a tunic made in each major colour...just for any occasion. Blue, green, red and white. 8-)

[Magnus]

Just to be awkward (not like me I know...) but,
concealment would be quite desirable in a navel context.
You would want to make sure the enemy did not spot you until it was too late, in the case of you having the advantage in numbers,to prevent them fleeing, or perhaps if you were hunting pirates...
or you were on a lone mission to carry a message or an individual....you would not want the enemy to spot you easily.
If you sail around with white sails flying, you will be soon spotted.
Just a thought.

But Byron, if you sail around with blue sails in the middle of the day, the contrast is just as high, and therefore you are just as easily spotted. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the navy only operated from dusk till dawn, to utilize their blue painted ships? The bottom line is that it's extremely difficult to camouflage vehicles of any type. At best you can maybe break up their outline, but by the sound of it, they were painted in one solid colour. And as camouflage...solid colours suck.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes the ladies love a well derssed man! :lol:

But no, bubble not popped, as I am sure it was a very beneficial colour for use in the Navey. It is also a very popular colour, today too.
The colours would certianly be useful to conceal your presence for a good period.
Also Greens, but as the Med is the Bluest sea I have ever seen, it makes sense blue was well used.

Does not mean Blue could not be used by anyone else though. I imagine rankers could probably pick anything they liked. Black seemed to upset some though!

[Kai]

Again Matt, who ever said blue was worn exclusively by the navy guys? And we have no contemporary source whatsoever that the legions had a special preference for blues, unlike in case of the navy. There is a lot to explain why blue should not be preferred: Saying officer’s attire did not impinge on the rankers, and dismissing Vegetius as not reliable for reasons I frankly find generic and unconvincing. Additionally what about the association of blue with Neptune or other marine imagery sported by naval soldiers? Compared to any other military tunic colour question, blue for the navy is good call.

Also your reasoning on why camouflage described by Vegetius does not work seems to operate on the prerequisite that the Romans were perfect in their efforts. Yes, single colour camouflage is imperfect, but that does not mean it was not intended for camo (the Austrian army uses single-colour camo-suits up to day). Blue sails, especially in the right colour (not neon-blue e.g.) clearly work better than white sails and Vegetius argument that it reduces brightness is scientifically sound indeed, especially when in bad weather/ bad sight conditions.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Having spent a couple of days at sea now and then, I can be pretty positive that the darker colour will defiantely not stick out like a sore thumb during the day.
Add to that poor conditions, and also when viewed from the advantage of a coastline, they can be practically invisible until practically right under your nose.
I think the dark colour, and blue especially, aside from all the other conotations would
work very well.

White is very visible 99% of the time.

[Nathan Ross]

The venetian blue mentioned by Vegetius was one of the traditional colours of the chariot racing factions, so we have at least one good reference to the tone he's talking about:

Charioteer Mosaic - Blue Faction (can't show the image directly, for some reason!)

A fairly light greyish blue, it looks to me - reproductions of this mosaic vary depending on the quality of the photo, but I saw the original in Rome this year and as I recall the colour was approximately as above. Fairly close to the tunic colour chosen by the re-enactment group discussed in this thread.

Even so, as Magnus says, even blue dyed sails won't provide much camouflage against a daytime sky, and any vessel hull-up is going to be easy to see from quite a distance. Might it be that this remark of Vegetius relates to the common Roman belief that the British seas were almost permanently fog-bound? mile:

Frescoes from Pompeii show ships of (presumably) the Misene fleet painted in various shades of green, red and yellow. At least one shows marines in what appears to be white:



- Nathan

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well I think you miss my point entirely, as the camoflauge requires the right conditions, as I stated earlier. It is perfectly feasable. 100%.
That shade of blue would definately be hard to pick out under all the circumstances I mention.

Even on a relatively clear day.

No one mentions invisibility... :wink:

[Nathan Ross]

Come to think of it, Vegetius specifically mentions scouting, so we're not actually talking about sea battles here, but rather reconnaissance. There weren't, as far as I know, too many actual seaborne conflicts around Britain anyway; the possible defeat of Constantine's first attempt against Carausius is the only one I can think of. Most of the time, therefore, the British fleet would be employed in watching coastlines and looking out for raiders.

Vegetius also says that the only the sails were blue, not the hulls. The best way of scouting at sea would involve getting men up in the rigging or on the yards, so the blue dress of the seamen might work in this respect: patrolling at dawn, with a moderate amount of haze, with the ship itself hull-down and the light behind the prospective enemy, might indeed enable sailors high in the rigging of a Roman scout vessel to see without being seen.

I think it would take some practical experiments to determine the effectiveness of this strategy though - if it was such a good idea, why didn't subsequent navies do it? :???:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Why are we still reinventing the wheel?
That is the zillion dollar question Nathan.

[Kai]

Hi Nathan,

I must stress Byron's point again: camouflage is not a Romulan cloaking device providing invisibility. It is about making detection more difficult than without. Vegetius directly mentions a key component of camouflage in lowering the brightness. Another key component is mimesis, again what sea-blue is to supposed to be according to Vegetius. Sure, disruptive patterns work much better, but one can hardly expect the sophistication of 20th century camouflage in the 4th century.
The waxed hull and tackle btw is often seen akin to the pitch-coated hulls of earlier warships, meaning they would be quite dark too.

I agree that it would need some testing. Anyone with a fleet around?

Regards
Kai

PS: from my experience, the argument “if x was so good why did not y use it” is not fruitful at all

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I agree that it would need some testing. Anyone with a fleet around?

Regards
Kai

Hold on, I'm just running the bath......

[Magnus]

Again Matt, who ever said blue was worn exclusively by the navy guys?

No one, why did you bring it up? My point was that if there was such a strong connection with the navy wearing it (based on the less-than handfull of evidence), why was it worn in the Legions? I figured because the two services were so closely linked, making any statement about blue being preferred by the navy would be difficult at best.

And we have no contemporary source whatsoever that the legions had a special preference for blues, unlike in case of the navy. There is a lot to explain why blue should not be preferred: Saying officer’s attire did not impinge on the rankers, and dismissing Vegetius as not reliable for reasons I frankly find generic and unconvincing.

And therein lies part of the problem. Anyone, and in fact it seems epidemic here sometimes, can take one or two pieces of evidence about any given topic, and all of a sudden become a crusader for some idea they have. You have presented nothing to firmly state that the navy preferred blue, only some officers and their boats (from Vegetius). However, as you mention, generic is using Vegetius as evidence for something specific. Again, if you can tell me what period in Roman history, and also the context that he is referring to...please do! Otherwise, that in itself is unconvincing. Take vegetius with a large grain of sea salt, because taken out of context his information can be misleading. You need another written source to corroborate.

Additionally what about the association of blue with Neptune or other marine imagery sported by naval soldiers? Compared to any other military tunic colour question, blue for the navy is good call.

Sure they could! But when? They could have just as easily worn white or red. Again, the only evidence I have seen has been for higher ranking officers, not the rank and file. If you have some images of the soldiers on the boats wearing blue, I'd like to see it (not being rude, I actually would like to see it). That would really clinch things.

Also your reasoning on why camouflage described by Vegetius does not work seems to operate on the prerequisite that the Romans were perfect in their efforts.

Now you are filling in the blanks as to why I said something, and you're off lol. I know for a fact it does not work, otherwise every military naval vessel in recorded history would have done it. During the age of sail, did you see any English ships of the line painted blue camo? No...usually they were black with a nice big yellow stripe down the middle. Why is that? But don't dwell on just the English example, show me a camouflaged ship that blends in with its environment at any point in history. Part of the problem is that ships sit above the water, and are instantly silhouetted against the horizon. If the blue paint only works at dawn or dusk (and that's not my theory), then why bother...unless you just want to paint it blue cuz Neptune likes it lol. (Fighter planes suffer the same problem.)

Yes, single colour camouflage is imperfect, but that does not mean it was not intended for camo (the Austrian army uses single-colour camo-suits up to day). Blue sails, especially in the right colour (not neon-blue e.g.) clearly work better than white sails and Vegetius argument that it reduces brightness is scientifically sound indeed, especially when in bad weather/ bad sight conditions.

No no no...single colour camo is uselss. I would argue the only effective camo has been modern digital patterns. It has been the only fabric pattern that has diffused the shape of the soldier wearing it. As for the sails...think of modern vehicles drive during the day with daytime running lights. Can I see them better than without? No...but I do notice them quicker. Sure, white is less bright than blue. So it takes someone an extra minute or less to pick out the big trireme...Naval combat in the ancient world was rather slow...the extra seconds needed to spot the blue sales vs the white was not life or death.

You are putting far, far too much stock in the value of a blue anything on the water. And having the soldiers on board wearing blue as it will help them blend in better is equally absurd lol. The only way it would work is if the sky and water were the same venetian blue all the time...with no contrast, no texture, no shapes, no movement etc. etc.

So what do we have? A theory that roman naval personnel wore blue. I'm actually ok with this...but don't push the idea like it's gospel when you have a mere few shreds of evidence. Don't feel (this goes for anyone) that you need to convince the masses that your idea is the way...

And if what Nathan said is right about Vegetius referring to scouting, did he just mean scouting vessals, scout class sailors and the men-at-arms on scout ships, etc. etc. Because that in itself raises more questions than it answers.

F**king Vegetius. I swear, he's probably laughing at us all right now.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I know for a fact it does not work, otherwise every military naval vessel in recorded history would have done it. During the age of sail, did you see any English ships of the line painted blue camo? No...usually they were black with a nice big yellow stripe down the middle. Why is that? But don't dwell on just the English example, show me a camouflaged ship that blends in with its environment at any point in history. Part of the problem is that ships sit above the water, and are instantly silhouetted against the horizon. If the blue paint only works at dawn or dusk (and that's not my theory), then why bother...unless you just want to paint it blue cuz Neptune likes it lol. (Fighter planes suffer the same problem.)

Magnus.
I know for a fact it does work....
Hazy conditions, when viewed from the shore, as well as dawn and dusk, overcast days, hazy days....I've spent half my adult life at sea...
It is an advantage.
And there are fighter craft painted blue...especially underbellies

When viewed from the cliff tops, a dark colour will be hard to spot...
you only need to close the gap, not sneak right up on them....