Leather Segmentata at Numantia?

[Tarbicus]

When I put my Deepeeka segmentata on last I tried to lift something on my shoulder, and found it very awkward, and certainly not as sturdily as ArsDimicandi demonstrate with their leather segs. Anyone else tried this? I pretty much got the same result that they illustrate on their website.

Something occured to me - what if the leather seg was used for non-combat duties? This is the opposite of Ars Dimicandi's theory, but would make more sense to me. Can anyone point to their leather-like segs on any reliefs showing that pattern in use during battle? Or, is it only depicted in building contexts? (where's Jasper?)

They use a photo of combat in sculptural relief, but I can't see how that can be called either iron or leather for sure. But, if non-combat duties were performed in hostile territory at least a leather seg would offer protection if surprised.

I know the arguments for not taking the eye of the artist literally, but do try to lift a block on your shoulder wearing a metal seg. Unnecessary damage and undesirable shaping would also probably occur with a heavy solid load lifted frequently.

And if anyone can shoot the above down in flames I wouldn't be upset whatsoever :wink: Just be nice.

Cheers.

[Dan Howard]

Something occured to me - what if the leather seg was used for non-combat duties? This is the opposite of Ars Dimicandi's theory, but would make more sense to me. Can anyone point to their leather-like segs on any reliefs showing that pattern in use during battle? Or, is it only depicted in building contexts? (where's Jasper?)

What's the point of wearing armour if you are not expecting to be in combat? You either wear armour that is suitable for combat or you wear no armour at all.

[Tarbicus]

What's the point of wearing armour if you are not expecting to be in combat? You either wear armour that is suitable for combat or you wear no armour at all.

I don't really know, ask Trajan and Marcus Aurelius. They had them depicted wearing armour while performing non-combat duties.

So, there are parts of Trajan's Column depicting soldiers wearing what definitely appear to be Corbridge iron type armour performing non-combat building duties.

The argument of scuptures is not convincing because there are too many indications that scuptures were/are conventions.

If the armour was fairly accurate on an earlier column, why would the artists decide it needn't be accurate on a later column? It doesn't make any sense, especially as commercial artists/artesans most likely wishing to outdo their predecessors.

Cheers.

[L. Aufidius Pantera]

Luca,

am fairly new to this whole thing (about 15 mins) - but read through this thread with interest...

For leather armour, I'm not sure if you know this, but there are several finds of armour made from crocodile leather from Egypt - a helmet-cover (if I remember correctly) is in the British museum. Not sure if they also made body armour (or even lorica segmentata) from it, but it might be sth to follow up on...

Christoph

[FlaviusCrispus]

For leather armour, I'm not sure if you know this, but there are several finds of armour made from crocodile leather from Egypt - a helmet-cover (if I remember correctly) is in the British museum. Not sure if they also made body armour (or even lorica segmentata) from it, but it might be sth to follow up on...

The BM has an entire "suit" of "armor" made from crocodile hide, including a helmet and a long coat terminating in extra-wide "pteruges." I put quotes around "armor" because some experts suspect this is purely ceremonial stuff, used in some kind of religious ritual peculiar to Egypt.

There is a reference in Dio Cassius to Caracalla's corps of Macedonian phalangites, which he raised in imitation of Alexander the Great, wearing helmets made of ox hide. The actual cuirass worn by the phalangites, however, is described as being made of three layers of linen (one imagines this would be very thick, heavy linen!).

Another little-noted passage in Dio notes that Caracalla himself wore a breastplate made of linen made to look like a metal one, because he could not bear the weight of a metal cuirass. This suggests three things to me:

(1) Most muscle cuirasses were metal,

(2) Those that weren't made of metal were more likely made of layered linen (perhaps impregnated with glue and molded in the manner of the old Greek linothorax, then painted to look like metal) than the "boiled leather" often depicted in movies and TV, and...

(3) It was considered somewhat "wussy" (to use an Americanism) for an officer or emperor to wear the lightweight linen version, rather than the manly metal one.


T. Flavius Crispus
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

[Dan Howard]

I don't really know, ask Trajan and Marcus Aurelius. They had them depicted wearing armour while performing non-combat duties.

So, there are parts of Trajan's Column depicting soldiers wearing what definitely appear to be Corbridge iron type armour performing non-combat building duties.

So? If soldiers are performing labour in hostile territory it is reasonable to assume that they might expect to come under attack.

[Tiberius Claudius Vindex]

Quote:
I don't really know, ask Trajan and Marcus Aurelius. They had them depicted wearing armour while performing non-combat duties.

So, there are parts of Trajan's Column depicting soldiers wearing what definitely appear to be Corbridge iron type armour performing non-combat building duties.


So? If soldiers are performing labour in hostile territory it is reasonable to assume that they might expect to come under attack.

What they'd probably do was similar to what the U.S. army did when it was in hostile territory in the old West. Fatigue parties cutting lumber often came under attack by hostile indians so the army would also send out a fully armed detachement with the wood cutters to watch their backs and hopefully deter any attacks. If they were attacked they'd fight off the indians and the fatigue party would get their rifles and join in. In Roman days I'd imigine they'd hold off the hostiles and let the fatigue party suit up as quickly as possible and join in the fight.

[Tarbicus]

This still doesn't get around the fact that it is difficult to hoist a heavy load onto the shoulders of a metal segmentata and keep it there, which is depicted in sculptural evidence from different periods. A leather seg allows the wearer to do this easily, as demonstrated by the Italians. Also, the damage rendered to a metal seg in such activities would lead to unnecessary need for repairs and replacements, whereas a leather seg would be flexible enough to not need replacement or fixing. Reliefs also show soldiers wearing only their tunics for other non-combat duties such as roadbuilding, so that was obviously a norm also, which is well accepted.

As for leather segs being unsuitable for combat, there are a whole bunch of people who regard it as plenty suitable. The legionaries depicted wearing armour and building don't seem to be making temporary structures, but more permanent structures made of cut stone. This requires quarrying which takes time and manpower. Hardly a foraging party or a unit on the move.

That said, my metal seg is not custom made to fit and maybe someone with such a seg has a different experience.

Cheers.

[GaiusAquiliusBritannicus]

Ave!

Back many years ago when I wore a lorica segmentata for fighitng in the sca (out of heavy guage aluminum, but with proper dimensions), I once slept in the armor during a 24 hour battle scenario (not at all comfortably, I might add ) and hauled coolers filled with ice, food and beer during the same time frame. True, not earth and rock, but a heavy weight none the less that was prone to shifting. What I found was that if the shoulder plates overlapped properly and were not of exceptional width, I could carry the cooler on my shoulder for short distances, but only if someone else placed it there and I used both arms to stabilize it. It was very doable, just not comfortable.

I think we're missing the point of the Columns, too. They weren't created to depict things 100% accurately...they were propaganda items as much as anything else. Why? Because, wouldn't a visiting barbarian be amazed at seeing a column that showed fully armoured men doing things that unarmoured men had difficulty with? In addition, it gave a great visual presentation. No doubt fully armoured soldiers did everything depicted on the columns...but did they do them 'effortlessly'? Probably not. In hostile territory, with attack imminent, bet your bottom dollar that I'd be hauling dirt in a bucket in full armour. May not be my best day as a 'civil engineer of rome', but I would get the job done!

Re: leather lorica...against poorly made iron weapons just about anything provides protection. The falx attested to the power which some weapons possesed, but did every culture outfit every enemy soldier with good weapons? LOTS of enemies were depicted using clubs and stones, and against that type of weapon even leather is good protection. 3 layers of linen, btw, made by painting on hide glue between each layer will make something that is darn near fiberglass in its consistancy when finished..add to the belly a row of scales on top of this linen and you've got decent belly armour. Definitely plenty of protection to turn aside a blunt spear tip or stop a slash from another weak metal or wooden club. Against our 1050 steel of today? Forget about it...

But having said that, I think no self respecting legionaire would have worn leather segmentata, though. Heck, it should say something that the auxillaries wore mainly hamata (when they had it), do we really believe the legionaires would not wear metal of some sort? And why wear a cloth scarf around your neck if you're wearing leather that you can oil up around the collar to be much softer? You wear the scarf-- and set a corresponding fashion statement-- because the iron of the lorica hurts like an S.O.B. when it pinches your flesh as it shifts.

Wow...longer than I expected.

Uale!

Britannicus

[Tarbicus]

And why wear a cloth scarf around your neck if you're wearing leather that you can oil up around the collar to be much softer?

You know, that's an excellent point. You should be a detective Unless colour of the focale had something to do with unit identification, which has been suggested before.

I have a feeling I should try to hoist and hold a load onto a seg with thinner shoulder plates. The new Deepeeka segs do have very wide shoulders.

Cheers.

[Lepidus]

It seems to me that no one has mentioned a particular point which comes to mind (unless I missed a post). If this Spanish Professor actually has an example of authentic leather segmentata, and no example is as yet extant, then doesn't stand to reason that this find would would be a worthy find to publish. Not to mention advance this professors career and bring an end to rather long time debate. What reason would a museum have to hide it away in the first place. It would seem prudent to make a display of the only know example of leather segmentata in the world-----Or----
was he just pulling someones leg. I could say I possess in my basement the authentic underwear Of Julius Caesar Dictator himself, And his only pair mind you. But its not true and not worth saying unless a proven fact and available for study.


AKA Gary

[GaiusAquiliusBritannicus]

You know, that's an excellent point. You should be a detective Unless colour of the focale had something to do with unit identification, which has been suggested before.

I have a feeling I should try to hoist and hold a load onto a seg with thinner shoulder plates. The new Deepeeka segs do have very wide shoulders.

Cheers.

Me and Falco!

Seriously though I do believe every one of us who puts on the equipment and does things in it are detectives. 95% of you all have done WAY more than me and I've learned so much just by listening to you describe your experiences. The archaeology is great, but without recreationists, I don't believe we would be as far along in our understanding of the finds. Even guys in leather segs and the SCA can aid some of this understanding in their own ways, imho.

re: the deepeeka plates...I agree. they seem very wide to me. On a guy who is over 6 feet tall, not so bad, but weren't roman soldiers like 5 foot 1 inches to 5 foot 4 inches on average? Deepeeka's current seg's would swamp someone that size!

Uale!

Britannicus

[Marcus Germanicus Ferox]

Salve Guys

Have read this thread with great interest to the extent of experimentation. I have myself 1 piece of the seemingly offending kit as well metal seggie and hamata, and it strikes me that there is quite a valid possibility which no one has mentioned/discussed. The leather seggie, although thick, is light and very flexible making it perfectly easy to wear over chain mail. The end product being a very practical, flexible, efficient piece of protective kit. I have photos of our little bit of fun taken last weekend but haven't posted any as would hate to offend the purists in our forum. Remember what Derek Forrest said - Just because we haven't found any evidence, does not mean it didn't exist.

Hope no one's having apoplexy

Vale for now

Ferox.

[Tarbicus]

I have photos of our little bit of fun taken last weekend but haven't posted any as would hate to offend the purists in our forum.

I've got no problem with it at all, and would love to see the pics. Go on, post them! It's a really interesting point you make.

Cheers.

[Marcus Germanicus Ferox]

Hey Tarbicus

Getting jasper to give a proper http thing - having trouble posting - otherwise can send to your personal email if you let me have it?

Cheers Ferox.