Roman horses

[Tarbicus]

Can I ask a dumb question (apologies in advance)? Where did the medieval charger come from?

[Robert]

Salve Arriana!

Should we ever get the themepark of the ground in Nijmegen, I would be most interested in hearing more about your thesis on the training of horses for the Roman cavalry, as we plan to field our own 16 strong detachment of auxillia cavalry. The reconstructed castellum will have the Valkenburg type stables.

[Lepidina]

Can I ask a dumb question (apologies in advance)? Where did the medieval charger come from?

Not a dumb question. From what I know, the medieval chargers were light draft horses like Polish drafts, around 15hh. They weren' the big, clunky draft horses that everyone uses at the Ren Faires these days. The Royal Armoury at Leeds has done a lot of research on medieval horses and those are the ones they use for their demos.

What I want to know is how the horse breeds from India got those cute ears that have curly points.

[Tarbicus]

Thanks Deb, appreciated. Can't help with the pointy ears I'm afraid. Perhaps they're Vulcan? :wink:

I came across this superb reconstruction of a Celtic cavalryman as well. Excellent site overall.
[url:3jzl9bwk]http://www.keltoi.de/kelten/reiter.htm#3+4[/url]

[RUBICON]

As Arriana said, te range would have been between 10 to 16HH. Some of these woudl have been hardy calvary horses. others suited to pulling carts as we are told of the baggage wagons that followed the armies.

My guess woudl be the cavalry horse would have grown from the region the army was deployed in. Taking on teh germanic hordes, the haflinger would cope better with the climate than its spanish counterparts.

Originally due to its occupation of Spain, the cavalry would have derived its original horses from that region. Those of us involved with horses would understand the lack of horse classification that goes back that many centuries.

It may have been the start of modern day breeding, bewteen horses of certain regions to find the correct mount to carry a roman calvaryman across long journeys and be hardy enough to survive the climates, I dont think we can point a finger directly at specific breeds, because my own studies dont suggest these breeds existed back then as we know them today for we know many of todays horses and ponies have originated through specific breeding prgrammes.

We know the draught horse developed much later.

I back up the notion of the Byerly Turk as the word arabian is usually associated with the desert arabian.

I have been recently been attempting to understand the breeding of roman calvary mounts. As a showjumping rider and breeder here in Australia, this topic is very exciting.

As for calvary mounts, I agree that you find the right horses with the right temperaments for the job.

[RUBICON]

Deb go that right. Those BIG clumpers dont gallop to well so couldnt really picture them charging...well I could and it would be a very cute sight as those big droopy eyes & huge round feet dont look veery menacing!

they were a lot smaller than teh 17 18HH monsters we see these days specifically bred for power and pulling.

Sorry, but we have a warmblood cross, who is big and grey...sometimes I imagine him with a crusader on his back charging.....well not very fast that is.....he can JUMP though!

Cheer to our equine freinds hwo have done so much in history!

[Arthes]

What I want to know is how the horse breeds from India got those cute ears that have curly points.

I wonder if Bucephalas managed some hanky panky before he passed over..... enough to make their ears curl.....or they wanted to match them to their curled beards (no...I think that was the Persians) and wonderful architecture.... :wink: :wink:

I thought the Medieval chargers were similar to horses like the Fresian and the Ardennes. Sturdy horses who could carry the weight of the armour, but also brave, stouthearted and fleet of foot when needed....

Roman horses....between 12 to 15 hands, on average 14 for a cavalryman i'd say...

[RUBICON]

Have just spent the last day attempting to find the origins of curly ears on arabs
(horses that is)

Personally I think it is an inherited feature like the dish face, high neck and short body.

Due to centuries of breeding these features have become the benchmark of identifying the Arabian Breed.

One article did confirm, that in 6th century, with the crusades venturing east, the recognising of the agility of the arabian horse, led to it being brough tback to europe and bred with the heavier type of horse to produce smaller. more agile calvary mounts of te time.

Sorry Tarbicus, thats the best I can do unless someone else has more information....I will keep searching.

[Alexius]

Dear felows,

This topic is about waht?

- the horse at roman army;

- the horse in the human kind history;

- the horse at roman (and other peoples) re-enectment;

Thanks,

Alexius

[Tarbicus]

The reason I asked about the medieval type of horse was because I wanted to know where they came from and why they actually would be so different to the Roman horse. I didn't actually want to change the subject, but there's no harm in finding out the background to other military horses for comparison. It's not unusual for mediaval armour to crop up in discussions about Roman armour, if only to glean insights from other periods and examples.

[RUBICON]

I thought the Medieval chargers were similar to horses like the Fresian and the Ardennes. Sturdy horses who could carry the weight of the armour, but also brave, stouthearted and fleet of foot when needed....

Roman horses....between 12 to 15 hands, on average 14 for a cavalryman i'd say...


I too thought teh horse needed to carry such weights bit while investigating I found the horse was not over 16HH ( 1 Hand = approx. 3 inches or 10 cm)
The Friesian I can believe as they are not a very tall horse. Though of solid stature, they would have been able to carry the armour.

Owning horses, I cant see how a 14 HH pony could carry a man, and the difficulty of balancing on such a small animal with shield and spear at the gallop would have required some good inherited riding ability. According to Caesars notes he make numerous comments on the more naturally co herent riding ability of the tribes over the romans.

A man of 5 foot, his legs would almost be touching the ground on a 12 - 14 HH pony with little chance of being able to wrap his legs aroudn the barrel of the horse, considering they rode without stirrups.

Personally, unless these horse were wide barrelled or slightly taller, I cannot picture a cavalryman riding one of such small size.

[Lepidina]

I came across this superb reconstruction of a Celtic cavalryman as well. Excellent site overall.
http://www.keltoi.de/kelten/reiter.htm#3+4

Some of the guys are good but some have fur covered Western saddles with stirrups!! Eeep!! Eeep!!

On medieval horses, it's good to know how the breed evolved so it is somewhat relevant.

On Friesians, they are light cart horses that were a relatively obscure breed until the movie Ladyhawke in the 80s. I think they have medieval origins but were mainly used as draft horses and later carriage horses, not riding horses. Ladyhawke came out and they became all the range. I think it's funny that Friesans are now considered "baroque" horses along with the Anadalusians, Lippanzaner, Iberians, and Lusitanos.

Anyway, older breeds that are similiar to what the Romans would have used are the classic pony breeds like Dartmoore, Hafinger, Fells (i'd kill to have a Fell's pony), Icelandics, Norwegian Fjords, etc. etc. If you look at the pictures and reliefs of cav guys, their legs are hanging pretty far down on the horse's side. If you figure the average Roman was around say 5'7", you can get an idea of how tall the horses were by how far their legs dangle. Needless to say, I'm 5'3" and my legs hardly ever dangle that far down.

On curly ears, I was thinking of the Mawari horses of India that have REALLY curly ears that almost touch. They're so cute!! [url:2lugh17j]http://www.horseindian.com/[/url] And hey, Rome had parts of India right and at least traded with them so they would be somewhat period for us right?

Rubicon - show jumping - cool!! I do dressage and polo - not so great at the polo but getting there!!

[Arthes]

Greetings Lepidina,

On Friesians, they are light cart horses that were a relatively obscure breed until the movie Ladyhawke in the 80s.

My daughter used to love that film, haven't seen it in years...!

I think it's funny that Friesans are now considered "baroque" horses along with the Anadalusians, Lippanzaner, Iberians, and Lusitanos.

My cousin and his wife have Andalusian horses...they are beautiful

Anyway, older breeds that are similiar to what the Romans would have used are the classic pony breeds like Dartmoore, Hafinger, Fells (i'd kill to have a Fell's pony), Icelandics, Norwegian Fjords, etc. etc. If you look at the pictures and reliefs of cav guys, their legs are hanging pretty far down on the horse's side. If you figure the average Roman was around say 5'7", you can get an idea of how tall the horses were by how far their legs dangle. Needless to say, I'm 5'3" and my legs hardly ever dangle that far down.
!

The Fell pony is definitely what the Romano Britons were thought to have ridden, especially up here in the Northern wilds (still some of it left..lol)
If the Sarmatians bought their horses over with them, these may have been interbred with the hardy Fell, which would have then made an ideal mount for the later Cunei based up on Hadrians Wall...and Arthur's warband...!
The Exmoor pony was the closest to what the warriors of the Celts used in their chariots and sometimes rode and I have no doubt they were also used by the Romans.
The Vikingr breeds are hardy animals, but as the warriors tended to dismount and not fight from horseback, I am not sure if they would have been used as cavalry mounts, but certainly by the legionary scouts. However, the Romans didn't have much to do with the Scandanavians, except those who had migrated in an earlier period...until the later migration/invasions of the Jutes and Angles, who may have used these breeds.
Quite a few years back, I had a short bareback ride on a pony, around 12 or 13 hands I think she was and at 5'7" with her chubby girth, my legs were still well above the ground....I felt more guilty about sitting on the poor thing...even though I knew my weight was within limits... :!:
Regards
Arthes

[mcbishop]

Is there any way we can be certain that these larger horses were for cavalry riding and not used solely as draft animals for carts etc?

Excellent point. And the horses of that era carried smaller loads (i.e. riders) than their descendants in successive centuries. Some of us can (unfortunately) say "I'm twice the man my great-grandfather was".

You can supposedly tell draft from ridden horses by the pathology of their skeletons (if you believe archaeozoologists, which I am inclined to do, if only for the word score of that profession ;-), Simon Davis (in his Archaeology of Animals) citing Gussage All Saints as an example. Certainly using the same animal in two very different ways is going to leave its mark.

As for human sizes, it is generally thought to be a myth that people were smaller in the distant past than they are now. Analysis of Roman-period cemeteries suggests that the male population was little different in average height to the recent past, although the British population has allegedly started to get bigger in the last few decades for some unknown reason.

Mike Bishop

[Tarbicus]

As for human sizes, it is generally thought to be a myth that people were smaller in the distant past than they are now. Analysis of Roman-period cemeteries suggests that the male population was little different in average height to the recent past, although the British population has allegedly started to get bigger in the last few decades for some unknown reason.

Caballo pointed out in another thread that recent southern Italian male sizes don't seem to be much different at all to, for example, the Herculaneum or Pompeii remains.

I need to rethink that whole armour size thing :?

But, I'm sure I've read reports that put the average in ancient Europe as smaller. I've posted links here on RAT. :? ?