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03-24-2005, 05:53 PM

Dan is right saying that some roman helmets were mass produced and exhibited poor workmanship, or at least hurried up workmanship. 
But what struck me is precisely the immense difference in quality between helmets of the same type. 
The Weisenau type can be a quickly hammered affair, with the brow reinforcement slapped on party sideways like the Cremona (?) bronze example. The Coolus/Buggenum type could be spun on a lathe and some caesarian helmets were simple skullcaps of thin metal not even fitted with cheek guards. 
However, Dan... 
...We also have the famous "mouse and loaf" helmet from the Guttmann collection, which is magnificently crafted and matched by the also famous bronze version, also magnificently crafted... 
I am also thinking about the Weiler "cavalry" type. Some were quite crudely decorated, some were even barely decorated at all while some others --the Xanten-Ward example- were true works of art. 
The Heddernheim helmet --the one with the cross reinforcments shaped like snakes and the very intricate decoration was apparently the "luxury" version of a more common style of which numerous bronze fittings were found all over the place. These are put in the Niederbeber category but I think they're a type by themselves. 
Actually, as rightfully noted by FeugÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¨re, Roman helmets seem to have always come in two versions which he calls "light" and "heavy". 
Or rather "cheap" and "expensive"? or "standard" and "custom"? A Roman soldier rich enough to afford it wasn't forbidden to buy a better quality piece, I should think. 
And I can't think of any single type that did not exhibit these two versions.

03-24-2005, 11:54 PM

Why do that. 
here's what my buddy Randi and I did, He Lurks around here ( Come on dude quit lurking and speak up) This guy is AWSOME when it comes to upscaling bad stuff 
 
We threw some tunes on the radio and went to work on it with a Bench Grinder. 
Bogus Cheek guards, Gone, 
Crappy Brow thingy, Gone 
Completely Wrong Neck Guard...Gone 
 
Next step , build new peices and re -weld. 
 
End result We'll have a genri-helmet 
 
As for the Forbidden Gladius'... 
Ain't a gladius made that we can't bring up to spec. 
This guy is that good and I'm starting to pick up some competency myself. 
I don't own any equipment that says "Made in India" 
Some of it was made in India but it would take FBI technology to prove theres a Made in India stamp on it. 
Nothing is "forbidden"! 
 
A little elbow grease can save a WHOLE LOTTA CASH

marsvigilia · 03-25-2005, 01:22 AM

Allow me to place my vast ignorance on display for all. 
I have been unable to locate the "CAS Iberia, Oberammergau dagger" on google. 
 
Could anyone provide a link? 
 
Thanking you in advance.

Daniel S Peterson · 03-25-2005, 03:22 AM

This is the dagger on the cover of Mike Bishop's book. (the original, that is). The copy is a bit too squat, and for some unknown reason goofy grooves were added along the side of the blade ridge. The inlay is all fake, but fairly convincing. Although marketed by CAS Iberia it is made by Paul Chen in Red China. 
 
Dan

03-25-2005, 07:00 AM

I personally own a mainz gladius from deepeeka. The blade is a bit asymetrical, though I know this was common on the originals and I've come to view it with a quirky affection. My only complaint with it is the sunken hexnuts. My question is why they don't peen it over like it was originally? It'd probably be cheaper than the hex nuts anyway.

03-25-2005, 11:11 AM

Well then since we're getting back on track, What modifications ,small or major would be needed to get the cheap helmets and the gladius up to serious standards.

Daniel S Peterson · 03-25-2005, 12:29 PM

Apparently, you didn't "get it". The whole point of this harangue was to establish that the Romans indeed used "cheap" helmets, and simple logic dictates that the "cheaper", mass-produced helmets were the most common, and equipped the great masses of soldiers. So you really don't have to do anything to most Deepeeka helmets to make them authentic, for they are already quite acceptable. There are little things on a few of them, like the misinterpetation if the edge rings on the Mainz Gallic I, (despite telling them to change this after I saw the first prototype!!). 
 
Of course, maybe most of you DO want perfect, hi-grade helmets that were probably used mostly by centurions and other officers. Since the "Roman reenactment mentality" these days is for every three guys in a local area to call themselves a "legion", commanded by a centurion, and MUST have a vexillifier to show their legion number and the low guy on the totem pole as the token legionary, then I guess in these typical reenactment groups, fine helmets made in private workshops instead of mass produced issue types would actually be more common. But hopefully, this hobby will mature, and although when U.S. Civil War reenactment began, who had this same mentality with "Regiments" of one Colonel, one flag bearer, and a couple of privates, now there are whole realisitic sized battalions and brigades. 
 
Deepeeka is already so overwhelmed by the wide range of Roman helmets in their line that it is difficult for them to keep track. Likewise most of the dealers. One of their finest helmets is the Gallic C, yet very few dealers even carry it. If they only made a couple of models there would be less mistakes. Which do you prefer? 
 
There is a reason I never asked them to do the Gallic D. It is because the original is too fine a helmet for them to accurately depict. I leave this for people who want to commision a hlemt from Simkins or the other high grade armorers. 
 
There also is a reason why there is a hex nut instead of a butted tang on their swords, and it is an economic one. They know this is not authentic, but when they make butted tang swords in humid India they leave the factory fine, but when they sit in a Southern California gift shop they dry out and the guard and pommel get loose, and the dealer wants his money back. But if it is a hex nut, Deepeeka can tell the irate dealer to get a wrench and tighten it. So rather than worry about making major overhauls on a perfectly acceptable helmet - just because a guy who has never seen a real one, (though you have evidently accepted as your new Fuerher), tells you to. Instead, take that time to fix you gladius instead of moaning about it, for there is plenty of material in that threaded tang to do so, and it doesn't require advanced armoring skills. 
 
Dan

03-25-2005, 12:30 PM

You know what's funny, 
 
In 1988 when I was in the Army, whe were on an FTX (Field Taining Excercise) In Hoensfeld (SP) Germany , AKA HoHo. 
 
Anyone Familiar with the area knows that there are 3 kinds of Mud. Red and Sticky, Grey and mushy and Brown and sticky/mushy. 
My Ruck Sack and Kevlar Helmet fell out of the Bustle Rack of my tank and was lost in the mud forever 
 
The Kevlar Helmet band had the words Space Ghost written on it. And the COver had a very small upside down FTA written on it. 
The Ruck Sack had 2 pairs of socks, 2 MRE's ,a shaving kit and a half a carton of Marlboro cigarrettes. 
Now, if in a thousand years they dig up the HOHO find, will all pre GulfWar/War on Terror Era reenactors have to have half a carton of smokes in their ruck sack and have SpaceGhost and FTA written on their hlemets? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rcroteau>Rcroteau</A> at: 3/25/05 1:35 pm

Tarbicus · 03-25-2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:<hr>I have a recurring nightmare that somebody will discover a Roman helmet that looks exactly like the trooper and we'll all sound like idiots.<hr> 
 
Uh oh. 
<img src="http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Jimmy5191/trooper_antique.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

03-25-2005, 12:52 PM

Jsantel said 
"Has anyone gotten any of the cheap gear yet? If so could you give a short review? " 
 
Yes we ordered some of the Gallic H's (I think) 
the cheap $115 or helmets and some of the $27 viking helms. 
 
We'll probably be picking them up sometime this weekend, 
I'll let you know how the are when we get them home.

03-27-2005, 01:18 AM

So what could be wrong with the helmet and swords? Well, how about the eyebrows meeting in the center or very bad welds. How about the cheek guards placed in the wrong place or what if the sword is hollow ground instead of a proper flattened diamond cross section, or how about the sword having a fuller ground into it or the scabbard having plastic instead of leather or a nut instead of peening. This is the kind of information I 
wanted to know. So Dan, you asked if I didn't get it, well yes I did. I probably understand better than you as I can see both sides of the perfect replica versus some variation argument. I also build armor and have been doing so for years so I understand how you can have variation in pieces that start out with the same pattern. Just being a little tired can cause two pieces to look different. I have made hundreds of pieces over the years not just held museum pieces. You have obviously been living out of the US for way too long. Learn to mind your manners better,especially since you live in the south. People do not put up with disrespect over here like you are apparently used to in Germany. You were in the military ? Times must have changed because when I was in the Navy a smart mouth would have caused you a world of hurt. I'll just make myself a helmet. Welded construction, it's too cold to raise one from a single piece of steel.

Daniel S Peterson · 03-27-2005, 10:47 AM

JSANTELL, 
From your note, I still don't think you "get it". What is this "pattern" stuff? Do your really think the Romans followed "patterns" invented by a modern writer some 2000 years after the fact? 
 
Some of these so called different "types" or "patterns" (intimately studied by unknowing button-counters more familiar with modern manufacturing methods), could have been made on the same day, in the same workshop by the same guyn and are classed as different types only because he began each one with a different sized lump of metal. Do you really think an ancient armorer would have laboriously shaved off a centimeter of neckguard just because it was different than the "pattern" he was copying. Of course not, but by leaving it on, he inadvertently created another "pattern" for modern enthusiasts to memorize and carefully duplicate. In fact, I doubt the ancient armorer of any given helmet was even following a specific "pattern", but rather, simply making serviceable helmets that followed very basic parameters, which did evolve over the decades. If he was pounding out a bowl and it became too thin, then he stopped and that will be a very shallow helmet like the original so called "Imp. Gallic. G". If his next billet was thicker, his next helmet would have a higher dome, like the so called "H", and if there was more neckguard material left, it would be bigger too, and sloping, rather than cutting it off. The arsenal helmets were probably made on an assembly line, and again, you might have two different so-called "types" because one "eyebrow guy" made his in a little bit different style than another "eyebrow guy" in the same Fabricum. 
 
The reality of the situation is that Deepeeka helmets are still uniformly better made than many originals most reenactors would never accept because they are so terribly made (by our modern "stamped-from-the-same-mold" mentality. 
 
Since you make armor, you should understand all this. 
I make armor too, for none of LEG XIIII's in my book was made in India and I am not rich enough to buy it all. Knowing how to make authentic armor was why I succeeded in India when so many failed before me. I can tell them exactly what to do because I know how to do it myself. Long before this, I've raised complete helmets in one piece, and one is still displayed at a museum in Mainz-Kastel, across the river from Mainz-Weisenau, the find-spot that gave today's scientific name the the Imperial Gallic/Italic "form" of helmet. 
 
Dan

03-28-2005, 11:59 AM

On the Lawrens Helmets, 
well , 
 
"Calcutta, we had a problem" 
 
SOmewhere between the catalogs and the picture taking,in 
India screwed up. 
 
We ordered The Gallic H's they're selling, we got... 
The New Troopers, 
 
they,(LaWrens) are dealing with the problem 
 
We're not worried about it because we are freindly with them and we live close by, so if worst comes to worse we'll just take "Store Credits" and buy something else. 
As we were both buying extra helmets, I allready have an Aquinsum and an Italic C this was going to be another Loaner. 
(I'n building 5 loaner kits so I have 4 "Soldier's in a box". 
 
They;ve already pulled the stuff off of E-Bay 
Trust me they are some kinda PO'd.

03-28-2005, 05:54 PM

Any word on the quality of the other items? I'm looking at the segmentata.

03-28-2005, 08:31 PM

Not yet but I can inquire.

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