Roman Salute

[Uwe Bahr]

Cinna,<br>
<br>
couldn't these men on the left be infantry centuriones or higher rankers wearing <strong>metal</strong> cuirasses with the extended abdomen? I think it was the intention of the stone-cutters client to show the difference between infantry equipment on the left and cavalry's on the right. I can't recognize why it should be leather armour.<br>
<br>
Aquilius,<br>
<br>
the second example will come, I hope I find it again ...<br>
<br>
But in the meantime I looked again on the Ahenobarbus relief. What is the civilian right to the tribune doing, is he also saluting - what do You think? I have only this little section and cannot interprete this gestus.<br>
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<img src="http://people.freenet.de/u-bahr/Ahenotri.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Uwe <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uwebahr>Uwe Bahr</A> at: 1/3/05 12:17 pm<br></i>

[Uwe Bahr]

Avete omnes,<br>
Titus, IMHO it was worth to wait ...<br>
<br>
here is a further example of a legionary saluting with his right hand lying on his helmet - so we have 4 examples of Roman soldiers executing the formal military salute:<br>
<br>
- the Domitius Ahenobarbus relief<br>
- the grave monument of T. Flavius Mikkalus<br>
- the 10th-century ivory casket with Byzantine infantry<br>
<br>
and<br>
<br>
- the figurine from the museum in Strasbourg:<br>
<br>
<img src="http://people.freenet.de/u-bahr/legsalut.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
After finding my information about the picture I had in my mind, I could happily find the above better photo in the Internet. It is from a page of the Musée Archéologique Strasbourg:<br>
<br>
http://www.musees-strasbourg.org/musee_ ... nnaire.htm
<br>
The French description in a short translation:<br>
<br>
"The figurine of a legionary displays the characteristic details of behavior and armor of a Roman officer: short tunica, two parts metal muscle cuirass, sword belt with gladius in sheath. An oval scutum with umbo and geometric motifs stand at the feet of the legionary. The remaining leg is protected by a metal grieve. The visored helmet covered with broad feathers. <strong>The gesture with the straight hand is the traditional salute of the soldier</strong>. (I hope, our French friends in the forum find no severe translation errors )"<br>
<br>
The figure is of burned loam, 140 mm high and dates from the early first Century CE. The figurine is a fine and authentic work, it is noticeable that the soldier stands in the same parade manner as the two Armenian infantramen from my former post, right hand saluting, left hand holding the shield on the ground ...<br>
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I know, we had a former discussion about Roman salutes, but I don't remember the result - do these 4 examples proof the Roman salute instead of only lifting of helmets? Any thoughts?<br>
<br>
Uwe<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uwebahr>Uwe Bahr</A> at: 1/3/05 12:18 pm<br></i>

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

<br>
The last one from Strasbourg you post adds a problem because it looks like the two-fingers salute used in the polish Army or the Cub scouts' salute.<br>
So, how has the roman re-enactor to do the salute, if we accept these almost evidences and decide to do it?<br>
<br>
Vale,<br>
Titus <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Maybe we should do a poll? Two fingers/palm forward/palm backward/none at all/live long and prosper?<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Let's be irritating...<br>
Does anyone know of a source where soldiers are described as saluting their officer? Polybius maybe? <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Flavius]

Saluete omnes,<br>
Uwe, the figurine from Strasbourg looks very nice, but I'm afraid it's a poor proof to demonstrate it was a formal military salute: his pose doesn't look much martial, as requested for a salute, indeed...<br>
The four examples showed are unfortunately all different:<br>
- In the Domitius Ahenobarbus relief the soldier seems clearly to lift the (heavy and hot) helmet;<br>
- In the Flavius Mikkalus relief the left cavalryman maybe simply remarks the "new" crest, different from that of a centurion; his hand is almost over the crest;<br>
- The image depicting Armenian infantry is very interesting, but refers to 1000 years later!<br>
Well, sorry, i'm not convinced, but thanks however for your precious contributions!<br>
<br>
So, i'm more and more persuaded that didn't exist one official military salute, but <span style="text-decoration:underline">many</span> salutes, not necessarily formalized.<br>
We know for example (from Livius, if I recall) that in front of a consul a cavalryman had to respectfully dismount from the horse;<br>
Flavius Josephus unclearly refers about "hands stretched" when saluting the general or when leaving the camp, but maybe the military salute in the ancient times was more spontaneous and informal than in the modern armies, and so not interesting for the writer or the artist.<br>
The open hand salute (not necessarily the nazi one) could be an excellent choice, it's spontaneous, easy to do and healthy, and no, it wasn't a Mussolini's invention, it already existed at least in the previous century, and is depicted in a lot of ancient representations, included...Flavius Mikkalus's one!<br>
Nevertheless I'm always open for a definitive and convincing proof!<br>
Valete omnes.<br>
Flavius <p>---------<br>
Fecisti patriam diversis gentibus unam;<br>
profuit iniustis te dominante capi;<br>
dumque offers victis proprii consortia iuris,<br>
Urbem fecisti, quod prius orbis erat.<br>
(Rutilius Namatianus - De Reditu Suo, I, 63-66) </p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Found a reference to a salutatio more militari (salute in the military manner) today. So there was one at least.<br>
It's in Ps.Caesar, African War 85, Scipio's troops have been defeated at Thapsus (46 BC) and abandoning all hope of salvation "gave the military salute by lowering their arms [as in weapons]" (Lat: armis demissis salutationem more militari faciunt). Since this was written by Hirtius or one of his officers, we may well assume they knew what they were talking about when they mention a military salute.<br>
<p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Tarbicus]

Quote:</em></strong><hr> "gave the military salute by lowering their arms [as in weapons]"<hr><br>
<br>
Could it be that in order to emphasise the lowering of the arms, they (the weapons) were raised before that? Having the arms just left hanging at the sides if they were there beforehand doesn't really strike me as being an acknowledgement of someone or something important.<br>
<br>
Only theorising, loosely. <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Wouldn't you express such a salute by saying something like "raising their weapons..."? <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Tarbicus]

To rephrase: In order to salute in the fashion described by Hirtius, do you think the arms were raised first, then lowered to complete the salute? Not just a raising of the arms?<br>
<br>
If I'm not wrong, isn't the modern formal military salute a two-part action - not just the raising of the hand, but also the lowering to complete the gesture?<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Drop the salute smartly. You should move your hand smoothly to your side in one motion.<hr><br>
customs & courtesies <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

I know what you mean, but you would describe the modern salute by the first part of the motion, not the latter, wouldn't you?<br>
Anyways, hard to know what exactly they meant by it. I suppose the inference that there is some sort of standard salute and that it propably does not include touching your hand to your head or poking your hand at the sun, is the best we can do. <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Avete,omnes. I know it's been awhile since this thread ended but having just run across it I had a thought. Consider how many ways of saluting exist in the modern army. In parade formation,when passing in revue, the standard bearer dips the standard, the officer leading salutes, and the troops if under arms give eyes-right or if not armed give the normal right handed salute. It's been a while since I was in the service,but I believe this is correct.(perhaps someone with a fresher memory can correct me). Personally, I quite like the stiff-arm along with the "chest thump".Seems to me to be a very military way of doing it. As far as archaelogical evidence, it seems this would be hard to represent on a monument conclusively, but most people here are more knowledgable in that respect than me. Valete,Andy(GaivsAntonivsScaeva).

[Graham Sumner]

I had to paint a figure saluting for Roman Military Clothing 3. The reconstruction was based on a number of late Roman sources but in particular a soldier in ivory carvings from the Cathedral of Maximianus now in Museo Arcivescovile, Ravenna.

In appearance it looks like the hand is held as if throwing an imaginary spear, perhaps as an indication that no weapon is held in the hand.

Graham.

[aitor iriarte]

Graham,
I've been at that Museum hovering about the ivory throne twice but I cannot find my pics now. Could you, please, post some image? 8)

Aitor

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Aitor

There is a drawing of the figure on page 6 of Roman Military Clothing 3. I am sure there were other examples in the same pose, so as soon as I can I will look through the reference material for the book to try and locate them. If I find them I will scan images to you.

Graham.