Elgin Marbles Poll

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmmm, what can the very ancient rock do? My beans can grow into a magic beansock, of course....(cheaper than the scaffolding required to dismantle the mountain...... :| ) and an added feature in the garden?

[M. Demetrius]

My rock can fell a giant. If you climb the beanstalk...it might be useful...don't forget your sling. We've drawn this entirely off topic. My fault.

It's really hard to know what is the right thing to do with antiquities in other nations' museums. If all were returned to their place of origin, who's to say what might really happen? Likely the same thing that happened to the smooth outer coating of the pyramids, or the bulk of the missing stones and bricks in the Colosseum. Stolen and used for building materials elsewhere, or just stolen and sold anyway to private collectors.

Most of the Egyptian tombs (and perhaps others) were emptied by tomb raiders, and probably some of them not that long after they were sealed. Those artifacts were probably melted or otherwise turned into marketable products. Gold was valuable in ancient times, too, so golden objects and jewelry were quickly turned into something else, sold at a fraction of their original worth, and have long since disappeared. For the most part, the things we know and have seen from ancient times are from artifacts that are on display in some other country's museums. Should they be returned? Well, maybe. If an exact copy can be on display behind glass, who's to say if it's the original? Could it be that the objects on display in some museum displays are not the originals anyway, but facsimiles put there to give us a glimpse at the Old Things without risking the Real Thing? I wouldn't be surprised.

[Matthew Amt]

Not much of a comparison between the Parthenon Marbles and few vases.

No, I'll grant you that. "Portable" antiquities and major monuments are certainly not the same, though there is a gray area in between (including some very notable small antiquities, for instance).

And if your not afraid to fly, you can get on a plane and visit any counrty in the world. Almost. :wink:

Sure, but the fact remains that just declaring myself to be of a certain cultural descent does not give me the priviledge to view all that culture's "heritage" that is packed away in storerooms, in the eyes of those who have custody of it. Only a very tiny elite ever get that chance.

If an exact copy can be on display behind glass, who's to say if it's the original? Could it be that the objects on display in some museum displays are not the originals anyway, but facsimiles put there to give us a glimpse at the Old Things without risking the Real Thing? I wouldn't be surprised.

They wouldn't be safer, because the people with access would know, and would know that they could get away with filching the things more easily than if they were on public display. Oh, well, I suppose paintings and such that are not protected by cases WOULD be safer packed away--I know visitors sometimes touch things they aren't supposed to, or even vandalize them.

Gotta run! Valete,

Matthew

[Epictetus]

The Economist weighs in:

As curators all over the world will see it, those who call for the permanent return of the Parthenon sculptures from London are arguing for international museums to be emptied…

You cannot go very far in righting those wrongs without entangling the world’s museums in a Gordian knot of restitution claims. That is why, in December 2002, 18 of the world’s leading directors—from the Louvre to the Hermitage and from the Metropolitan Museum to the Getty Museum—argued for a quid pro quo. The Munich declaration, as it is called, asserts that today’s ethical standards cannot be applied to yesterday’s acquisitions; but in return it acknowledges that encyclopedic museums have a special duty to put world culture on display…

The choice is between the free circulation of treasures and a stand-off in which each museum grimly clings to what it claims to own. Instead of grandstanding, the Greek culture minister should call the British Museum’s bluff and ask for a loan. The nervous British would then have to test the waters by, say, sending to Athens a single piece of the Parthenon frieze. If that piece were to be seized, then so be it. But if on the due date, the Greeks surprised everybody and returned the sculpture, then the lending programme would surely be expanded. By taking small steps, the Greeks may yet encourage the British to make the big leap…

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

They already asked for them on loan....that too was refused! :? roll:
So I guess that has led to the grande standing?
I feel the actual fact that Greece is a modern EU country is being totaly ignored by people who want to portray it as a backwards 3rd worl country?

[Jona Lendering]

The Economist weighs in:

The Munich declaration, as it is called, asserts that today’s ethical standards cannot be applied to yesterday’s acquisitions; but in return it acknowledges that encyclopedic museums have a special duty to put world culture on display…

Thanks. This was exactly what I was looking for. I had an opportunity to recently visit two museums (Tongeren and Xanten) that were in the position to rebuild everything - new building, new insights, new concept, new models, new displays, new everything. What impressed me was that both museums were light (no half-illuminated rooms here where the objects are shown as mysterious artifacts from a dark, distant past), and -especially in Xanten- that many objects were shown from other collections. Yes, museums should collaborate.

[size=85:trlol6oi][Edit: link inserted][/size]

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I think that is exactly how the new Acropolis Museum in Athens is designed too. Natural light a large factor in the design, plus the bonus of being able to view the Acropolis/Parthenon in the background while viewing the marbles!

[PhilusEstilius]

I think at the end of the day we have to admit that most of these so called Antiquarians of recent centuries were no more than a bunch of rogues who went around in the name of Archaeology plundering just what they wanted, even at times having to lubricate a few palms' to do so.
Indeed as I have mentioned in my earlier post that now the Parthenon has a very good Museum the old fashioned wool over the eyes nonsence about pollution can not hold water any more so please let us stop all the Horsec...p and give back what was stolen in the first place.

[Robert Vermaat]

give back what was stolen in the first place.

First things first. Venice must return what they nicked from Constantinople in the years after 1204.
:twisted:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Right, enoughs enough! Just sign everything over to me and I'll decide! :mrgreen:

[PhilusEstilius]

The topic under discussion is about the artwork that was stolen from the Parthenon so not to go off topic, I would say let us get them back there.

[Epictetus]

Sometimes spam slips through my email filters, and it is always the stuff you expect: Viagra, Nigerian diplomats with money, etc. But today I got spam about the Elgin Marbles, of all things. hock: I checked the website ( www.bringthemback.org ) with my F-Secure and it looks legitimate. They bill themselves as a "Campaign for the return of the Parthenon sculptures and the reunification of the monument" and are collecting signatures.

Has anyone else got this?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I hadn't noticed it to be honest, I just check my spam for recognizable addresses, then delete the lot.
Thanks for the link!

[Idomeneas]

?ffcourse everybody is entitled to his/her opinion, but i must say i am impressed by the view of some people. The cool thing about this forum beyond the great info, is that there is a strong community of people who love archaeology and ancient history so much that they are willing to bring it back to life. It seems strange to me to see opinions that support the mutilation of an ancient monument. Oups! Not just a building but a work of art! Imaging Mona Lisa quartered and a piece displayed in Japan, another in US etc. There was an example about Rembrandt. Well Rembrandt was a professional painter. He sold his art, thats how he earned his living. Its logical that his works ended up in various hand after sale and resale. If Rembrandt had painted though a painting for the state then yes the Dutch people would have the right to sought after it. The marbles are part of Parthenon which was constructed as a temple/landmark of the city of Athens.

If there was any permission it was given by the occupation forces of Ottoman Empire which didnt represented in any way the greek state/people/ethnic group, as the british cannot represent the Irish or US pioneers the Indians. As for the question why the Greek goverments didnt claimed the marbles before. Well one has to study modern Greek history to fully understand this. You see before USA become a superpower, Britain was in its place called the shots here, and along with germany and france set the political chess board. Well you cant rise up against your boss can you? As soon as USA replaced Britain in power and set a new table, politicians found the courage to rise against the old boss (but not the new :wink: ) And please dont parallel what happened with any grandfather house sold, or at least do it right. Lets have the house occupied, grandpapa beaten, grandmama raped and house given basically away to a friend for a penny (who cares anyway?).

The whole thing isnt about displaying the ancient artifacts at all. Greece is a sunny, hospitable, highly touristic country. The thing is about money and prestige. I wonder what would be left in British museum if Greek and Egyptian artifacts were removed? Something tells me that the stuff in the storage of any museum in Italy, Egypt and Greece would match them and more in interest. About the safety and room.. well we have a new big museum and althought i dont find its architecture to my taste, its certainly modern and serving its purpose. We shouldnt forget that the British museum ''experts'' damaged the marbles by trying to whiten them, or the usage of the space as richmen dinning room.

[Robert Vermaat]

If there was any permission it was given by the occupation forces of Ottoman Empire which didnt represented in any way the greek state/people/ethnic group, as the british cannot represent the Irish or US pioneers the Indians.

Please don't go there Yannis. You can stretch that argument back for millennia just to justify or complain about anything. It could mean that Italy is the rightful owner of all Roman ruins everywhere. Or that Italy should pay for their upkeep.