Linothorax design/construction

[Vishtaspa]

Yes it is confusing...

Apart from Julius Pollux, I have checked Hesychios lexicon and it's very interesting:

(sigma 1542) spolas: khitoniskos bathus skutinos, ho bursinos thorax

"little thick leathern(skutinos) chiton, the leathern (bursinos) thorax"

Well, there is a clare reference to leather as material. Is called both "chiton" (diminutive) and "thorax" (perhaps a civil reference and a military one?)

But again, it is a late autor (V AD) and the term could varied his meaning. But it's very interesting, we have two late (but believable) sources with leather as spolas' material.

regards!

[Paullus Scipio]

Dan wrote:-

So ignoring the spollas red herring. Is there any textual evidence that Greeks used leather armor in the classical period?

.....the answer is clearly "YES!"...we now have two lexicon references to spolas being leather body armour, and very likely ('hanging from the shoulders' describes the tube-and-yoke style, even if not literally true, ) the tube and yoke style...and this latest lexicon entry shows that my guess that 'spolas' was either a generic term for leather body-wear, or taken into military use from civilian when the Tube-and-Yoke corselet came into use now has some vindication. Furthermore, the two lexicon definitions are sufficiently un-alike that it is unlikely that one is simply a copy of the other.....
so, let us rephrase Dan's Question:-

So ignoring the "linothorax" red herring. Is there any textual evidence that Greeks used linen armour in the classical period?

...well, so far, the answer D lol: appears to be a resounding NO!...unless of course someone out there knows better......... lol:

[Vishtaspa]

Pollux refers another interesting thing:

He says about spolas: "Sophokles call it Libyan. Libyan spolas, leopard's skin"
(sophokles d'auten libussan onomazei: spolas libussan pardalephoron deros)
from a lost play.

can be that the tube and yoke shape originates from the tipical wearing of animal skins, like Herakles or Dionisus en art?
Or pollux with "kata tous omous ephaptomenos" refers to an actual animal skin shape garment in classical times?

At this point I'm open minded. I think that tube and yoke and plate (the four main plates) and yoke cuirasses would be made of many materials, depending disponibility of material, costs, armourer... Leather would be more expensive than textile, linen or textile was a technique known to greeks (although the mostly asian references, but it isn't a problem, greeks were open to influences), and there were of course a great number of composite ciurasses with scales, plates, etc, as vase painting richly shows, and sure those were the more elaborate and expensive. That's only my point of view, not a thesis, of course.

regards

[PMBardunias]

"little thick leathern(skutinos) chiton, the leathern (bursinos) thorax"

What is the implication of the two words for leather, Skutinous and Bursinos. Do they both translate exactly as simply "leather" or is there more nuance to the information they convey? The fact that the author chose not to use the same word might convey some information, even if only that those words were formulaic with chiton or thorax.

[Vishtaspa]

"little thick leathern(skutinos) chiton, the leathern (bursinos) thorax"

What is the implication of the two words for leather, Skutinous and Bursinos. Do they both translate exactly as simply "leather" or is there more nuance to the information they convey? The fact that the author chose not to use the same word might convey some information, even if only that those words were formulaic with chiton or thorax.

Well, in a classical sense, "bursa" is a skin stripped of, and "skutos" is skin in general (latin Cutis), and something made of leather (the root also has to do with shoemakers).
I don't see clear the difference in this passage, but I'm sure that the election of two different words in a lexicon has a cause. Perhaps different type of leather treatment? hardened and crude? A deep research of the words for "leather" could help perhaps...

regards

[Paullus Scipio]

Inyigo wrote:-

and there were of course a great number of composite ciurasses with scales, plates, etc, as vase painting richly shows, and sure those were the more elaborate and expensive.

...I think everyone accepts that many(most?) Tube-and-Yoke corselets were composite, i.e. made of a number of materials, and the fierce debates here have really been about the underlying material - the foundation garment, as it were.

For what it is worth, I think it quite possible that Asian Linen corselets could well have been worn - purchases, spoils or what have you, especially in Anatolia, - Caria, Phrygia and so on. I also strongly suspect that such corselets were made of padded/quilted linen, and that the whole idea of 'glued linen' is a myth stemming from Peter Connolly.

I also strongly suspect that the common/normal foundation material for Tube-and-Yoke corselets made in Greece itself was probably, usually, Leather( including rawhide) for reasons that I have set out at length on previous threads.

PMBardunias wrote:
"little thick leathern(skutinos) chiton, the leathern (bursinos) thorax"

What is the implication of the two words for leather, Skutinous and Bursinos. Do they both translate exactly as simply "leather" or is there more nuance to the information they convey? The fact that the author chose not to use the same word might convey some information, even if only that those words were formulaic with chiton or thorax.


Well, in a classical sense, "bursa" is a skin stripped of, and "skutos" is skin in general (latin Cutis), and something made of leather (the root also has to do with shoemakers).

I think Paul B. has made a very shrewd observation here, which Inyigo has elaborated for us...if the essential difference is that 'skutos' refers to treated leather, and 'bursa' to untreated skin...then that could mean 'bursa' is a reference to rawhide ( see also Hypaspist's posts)......so the chiton was maybe thin, soft treated leather ( as you'd expect for a garment) and the armour would be thicker, rawhide or rawhide-derived, or the basic alum treated that Paul B. has referred to........which, if correct, would all make perfect sense! D

[Hypaspist]

Thanks To all the Information , about Ideas of " leather Tube and Yoke , I have found the raw materials , enough to make two of them , I think . I looked and Found the ALUM Tanned hide , seems a cross between Buff Leather and Rawhide ? and It is WHITE in Color , and I found some Skins .. 20 Square feet of rawhide . I guess I will sewn with Thin Rawhide , very thin and stretched when wet . Also something I did not know is Rawhide can be Bleached white or Colored Red , Black or what have you .. To me even makes it a better candidate for a " Tube and Yoke " Armour ,
Michael Pechacek Sr.

[hoplite14gr]

Bursinos is processed hide (leather?)
The hide-leather workesr is "byrsodepses"

Kind regards

[Duncan Head]

So ignoring the "linothorax" red herring. Is there any textual evidence that Greeks used linen armour in the classical period?

There's the Sophokles Epigonoi quote on woven "breastplates" that we've had before - see the article available at http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/new ... ndent.html . The fragment includes the lines:

"And the helmets are shaking their purple-dyed crests, and for the wearers of breast-plates the weavers are striking up the wise shuttle's songs, that wakes up those who are asleep."

And there's Nepos on Iphikrates' linen cuirasses, and Herodian on Caracalla's re-enactment of Alexander's phalanx in linen armour.

Which is not a lot: all these are either heroizing (the Sophokles) or very late sources.

[Vishtaspa]

There's the Sophokles Epigonoi quote on woven "breastplates" that we've had before - see the article available at http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/new ... ndent.html . The fragment includes the lines:

"And the helmets are shaking their purple-dyed crests, and for the wearers of breast-plates the weavers are striking up the wise shuttle's songs, that wakes up those who are asleep."

This is a wonderful find! I haven't see the trasncription, but in the Papyrus itself I clearly read:

"thorakophoroisi d' uphant..." ("for the wearers of breast-plates the weavers.." in the published translation)

In fact, "uphantes" means "weaver" from "uphe" "weaving, web"...

In the passage, this clearly implicates a method of construction, thorakes clearly made from textile. Sadly we haven't a more broad context, but the Epigones are a greek context, not an Asian one.

Regards

[Paullus Scipio]

Duncan wrote:-

"And the helmets are shaking their purple-dyed crests, and for the wearers of breast-plates the weavers are striking up the wise shuttle's songs, that wakes up those who are asleep."

...this hardly fits the bill! The Epigoni is the mythological pre-Trojan war 'Seven against Thebes'. And you are being somewhat disingenuous,Duncan, :wink: because the very next line of this 'preparations for war' refers to chariot poles!...hardly 'contemporary! :o
The Iphicrates reference, aside from being very late, refers to chain-mail being replaced by 'lighter' linen...something clearly wrong here, on both counts!
By Caracalla's day, they probably had no more idea than we do about exactly what such Tube-and-Yoke corselets were made of, and we don't know what prompted the choice.Suitably Homeric? Plutarch's reference to Alexander wearing Persian armour? Were these quilted?
If we are to clutch at such straws, then you might as well include the fragment of Alcaeus of Lesbos and his reference to 'new linen'...except he lived before Tube-and-Yoke corselets appear and is almost certainly writing 'Homeric' poetry.
All that these examples do is highlight the fact that there is no credible/plausible contemporary references to Tube-and-Yoke corselets being constructed of linen.
I have summarised all this stuff before(see e.g."Leather Cuirass" thread, page 7.)....the only new things are the second lexica reference to leather armour, and the fact that Alum-tawed leather/ rawhide is white(see e.g. American baseballs) and appears to fit the bill perfectly as a contender......and possibly the Macedonian Hoplite grave sites, which apparently contain fragments of leather armour.....

[Hypaspist]

Paul M,
My I make the small Point , That really the Color of the material , ie be it leather or some other material we seek for the " Tube and Yoke" Armour nothing really rests on it being White . :roll: Really it only makes some sense that what we see in The Ancient Art , be it Greek or Etruscan , or whatever . That what we see is usually ,at least partly decorated with pigment or a stain . And the leather or whatever material could just as easily be painted White , Chalked or Bleached . I would venture to say again that I bet "My Sweet Bippy " That They Chalked this Armour , to keep Fresh and White , it makes much more practical sense then caring around some type of paint or Pigment for future use .The base material being white is would simply be a convenience . or a good base to paint or color if need be
Michael Pechacek Sr.

[Paullus Scipio]

I quite agree, Michael. But Alum tawed rawhide/leather is a good contender, not just for its colour.
Here are a few more factors in its favour......
* Alum tawed skin has many of the properties of rawhide, being technically not 'tanned'/waterproofed( also its biggest disadvantage...I will return to this.)
*It was widely known and used in the Ancient world -from Egypt,Phoenicia,Assyria,Babylonia,Mesopotamia,India, the Mediterranean world, Romans, Celts.....almost universally known and used.
* It continued in use in later times, for example, the term 'cordwainer' for a maker of shoes (technically a cobbler is a repairer of shoes) derives from Cordova 'leather', which was the finest Alum tawed leather, used for 'kid gloves' as well as shoes.
* It has only been displaced in post-industrial times.

The widespread use in general, and its use for shoes strongly indicate that Ancient and Mediaeval workers overcame it's only drawback and knew how to waterproof it! Caesar apparently records the Veneti as using it for sails ! (it was also used in later periods for sailmaking) hock:

[Hypaspist]

Paul,
I agree with all your Posts ,Sir wink: This is a material , the Greeks Knew Of , Of course there is also some other ways like Pitching .. Other forms of leather like Boiled leather can be very hard .. Like German Spiked helmets .. But One thing a hardened leather will not necessarily do is have Spring , being more prone to develop Cracks or Creasing . I still would bet on a combination such as encased Rawhide with a Covering , and most of the Art I have seen supports a Edged construction , meaning to me a composite , laminated , or Sandwiched construction , that has been edged to keep it together . I guess Alum tawed Leather would fit this bill in my mind ..as a Covering to Hard , Springy and Thick Plates of rawhide or some other materials, But I presume and will soon have some examples to share , that even just several layers of Thick Hardened leather would be a effective Armour all by itself ! :roll: But I do not know as this type leather alone would have the spring over a period of time we see so consistently Illustrated in Art , without some other Material or construction method being employed .

Michael Pechacek Sr.

[Paullus Scipio]

Yes, Michael, I think many of us are looking forward to seeing the results of your testing......
I wouldn't get too hung up on 'springiness' of the shoulder pieces if I were you, since, as I have pointed out elsewhere, if the shoulder pieces were relatively thick, they would appear to 'stand up' in just the way we see in the few depictions on pots we have, if 'flung back', even if not springy.
As to construction, I doubt that even using the thickest sole leather, one layer would be enough - and as soon as you accept more than one layer, you are into the realms of 'composite' and from there it is an easy step to combining materials -e.g. Alum tawed outer leather, tanned leather inner ( because of the sweat factor) or even Alum tawed outer, rawhide middle , tanned sole leather inner...or any other practical combination, including a silk lining if you wish!
As to water-proofing, I doubt the ancients considered that much of a problem...neatsfoot oil, lanolin, and any number of water-proofing agents were available and using them would come as naturally as 'dubbining' your hiking boots.... D