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mcbishop · 02-03-2003, 11:56 PM

Mike, I don't know about tossing a spanner in the works (maybe a horseshoe would be more appropiate?) but I'm getting a bit confused here. You say horses were mainly ridden by cavalry and officers-wouldn't centurions have fallen in the latter category? 
I have just dug up a little booklet by Graham Webster in which he states that centurions were mounted on the march. He's actually talking about the wearing of greaves i.e. the fact that regular soldiers sacrificed such protection as they hampered mobility on the march, whilst centurions who rode wore them. I do realize this publication is very dated and current thinking on the subject may well be different now but I can't find any other reference to it at all. 
 
He was probably confused by the tombstone of T. Calidius Severus (it is one of the plates in his Roman Imperial Army, where the same deductions can be found) who was indeed a centurion: 
 
www.khm.at/system2.html?/...ge662.html 
 
but only the image is shown in Webster's book and he does not mention the inscription, which states that Severus served in both the cavalry as an eques, optio, then decurio, and finally as a centurio in the legio XV Apollinaris. Our man is attempting to have his cake and eat it by depicting both the attributes of a centurion and a cavalryman (the latter in a direct echo of Totenmahl tombstones, with the calo leading the horse). Thus it is scarcely proof that all centurions had horses (generalizing from the particular is, of course, a weakness of all ancient historians and archaeologists, myself included ;-) 
 
One has to remember that even today there are many less developed areas of the world where horses are ridden unshod. 
 
Since my wife spent a day removing (permanently) the shoes from all the ponies at the riding school where she works, does that make Scotland a less developed area? Don't answer that! 
 
Mike Bishop

rekirts · 02-04-2003, 04:04 AM

jackie 
 
Thanks for your input. In fact I had him buying a mare. 
I also read in a couple of books something about centurions having horses, but I don't know where they got their information and I've also read many books that don't mention it at all. 
 
Anyhoo, my guy has his own horse and is riding with some cavalry types so I'm not too worried about him having to take an oxcart for this trip--although earlier in the story he is riding a horse when he probably shouldn't be. Ah well, that's what revision is for. 
 
Wendy 
 
 
 
Wendy

Caius Fabius · 02-04-2003, 04:19 AM

Reconstructions of the Roman wagons that I have seen show a developed leather strapping suspension system. I have spent lots of time on horseback, not distance riding, but riding back and forth after cattle, checking fences, going back and forth to work, blah, blah blah. On the few times I rode long distances,even my butt got sore, and I was used to riding every day. 
 
For a journey of 100+ I would have prefered to ride in a wagon, especially with pillows and seats. And your personally owned horse is probably better off if you don't wear her out on long marches to strange places with crowded stables. Of course, the centurion must be taking his slave along, to do chores, and cook, so does he want to ride at the pace of his slave, or to rent a horse for his slave as well? (Or let him ride on the wagon?) 
 
replica wagon suspension from Archaeodrome: 
It was working for a while as a photo, then it just stopped, so I'll just add the link: 
[url=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/1015%20wagon%20suspension.jpg" target="top]groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/1015%20wagon%20suspension.jpg[/url] 
 
 
 
"Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=caiusfabius>Caius Fabius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/C%20Fabius%201988b.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/4/03 5:00:15 pm

02-04-2003, 04:34 AM

Your centurion may have even gotten a ride with a dispatch courier headed to a city with mail. Cheaper that's for sure, and room for his slave, as caius mentioned perhaps. 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

02-04-2003, 08:02 AM

unless one does their own farrier work, shoeing horses is an expensive proposition! plus, permanently shod horses can develop some wickedly bad foot malformations. the little bit I know on the subject comes straight from (HEY! gimme a break here!) a former girlfriend. I was coerced into financing her horse and related expenses, and boy was it an eye opener for me, a mostly citified rural lad! EM 
really a good learning experience overall though. in several contexts!

02-04-2003, 05:11 PM

A centurion riding a mare would be unlikely. Mares were not considered a manly mount and were basically used for breeding purposes. Given the greater proportion of stallions, riding a mare could also be a risky proposition, especially if your centurion travels with troopers, who surely will ride stallions.. 
As for shoeing... Horses have been going shoeless for quite sometime and it seems to work OK... 
I think Xenophon advises to have the floor of the stables made of hardwood to strengthen the hooves and depending on the terrain, you actually do not need shoes. Some almost modern style horsehoes have been found on roman levels but it is obvious the vast majority of horses (and mules) went unshod. 
Granted, the risk of hoof injury is greater with unshod horses. I suppose this was accepted as a fact of life. 
A horse was also a status symbol. Only soldiers and wealthy citizens would ride horses, the commoners would either walk, ride a mule or a donkey, or take the stage coach. 
Actually, come to think of it; for long distance, the wealthy would have their own coaches or litters. That leaves the soldiers riding horses...

02-04-2003, 10:26 PM

"Since my wife spent a day removing (permanently) the shoes from all the ponies at the riding school where she works, does that make Scotland a less developed area? 
Don't answer that!" 
 
Mike, as I have quite fond memories of working in Scotland plus Scottish ancestors on my father's side I will restrain myself... 
As a matter of fact I am aware that today even in...um...more developed areas there is a growing number of horse lovers who advocate de-shoeing horses believing it to be more healthy and natural for them. I did think to mention it but was trying to avoid rambling too much. 
 
I checked out the link you provided. That tombstone is pretty interesting with the centurion's apparel above and the horse below. I don't understand how Graham Webster could have been confused if it states on the inscription that the guy was a decurio too. But I will take your word for it he was probably generalizing from the particular. It's kind of reassuring to know that even you experts are not totally infallible! 
 
"Thus it is scarcely proof that all centurions had horses." 
 
I will take this to mean that we do not have to rule out the possibility that SOME centurions may have been riding round on horses even if not on the march?! 
 
Caius Fabius, I have to admit I should have checked the facts before making comments on wagons. After posting I did unearth some imfo about leather strapping suspension systems. I have yet to see the picture though. Earlier I just had a little red x on my screen; now it appears I have to fill in a registration form as long as my arm to get at it. Don't you know any easier links by any chance! 
I guess then wagon travel with a few cushions wouldn't have been as bad as I suspected, though I am still not convinced it would be preferable! 
As for the requisite slave-weren't all those centurions into bribery, racketeering etc? Surely it couldn't have been that difficult to wrangle a couple of horses from the fort stable... 
 
Wendy, I'm happy you found a mount for your centurion and some good cavalry types for him to hang out with. 
Ox carts...huh...sort of draws to mind images from Gladiator-the worthless Commodus lounging round in the wagon with the women whilst noble Maximus is out there doing heroic stuff-on horseback.

mcbishop · 02-04-2003, 11:53 PM

"Thus it is scarcely proof that all centurions had horses." 
 
I will take this to mean that we do not have to rule out the possibility that SOME centurions may have been riding round on horses even if not on the march?! 
 
Certainly they may have owned them as individuals, but we have no evidence to prove this that I know of and they would not have used them in the line (nor, it stands to reason, on the march: they would be with the baggage like most of their other possessions). Part of the importance of the horse lay in its height advantage for the Ruperts behind the battle line so they could see what was happening (hence the metaphorically cocked eyebrow of historians when generals send away their horses so they could appear to be 'one of the men'). Centurions, being in the front line, were close enough not to need them ;-) 
 
Mike Bishop

Caius Fabius · 02-05-2003, 04:00 AM

I have the photos on my CD with 800+ other Roman photos taken on the "Roman Army Tour 2002. I can upload individual photos to the Romanis newsgroup. I am unable to figure out how to upload them to ezboards and the R.A.T. newsgroup. I guess I am confused by I-Technology. 
If you are a researcher/writer, you probably should join "yahoogroups.com", for additional information about Roman military and civilian life, iron working, pottery, religion, and dozens and dozens of other similar and not so similar groups. There are even groups/forums that discuss how to get your books published! "Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987

rekirts · 02-05-2003, 04:44 AM

I chose a mare because I read this passage from "Training the Roman Cavalry from Arrian's Ars Tacitica" by Ann Hyland: 
 
"Among the papyrii found at Dura Europus on the Euphrates was a 'horse list' from the records of the Cohors XX Palmyrenorum dating to AD 251. It showed a list of thirteen horses with prices, colours ages, brand marks, length of service (i.e. date of purchase), to whom they were assigned, etc. This document is very useful in determining that both mares and stallions were used in cavalry ranks: eight were males, presumably entires in the east; three mares, and two not specified." 
 
I had this brief humorous bit having to do with the horse's name which wouldn't work if it was a stallion. However I am always open to suggestions and am not stuck on keeping that bit. 
 
There sure is a lot here to think about. 
 
Wendy

02-05-2003, 11:50 AM

Salve, 
 
The centurions on special duties included a number that were mounted, such as for instance centuriones exercitatores, - frumentarii, - speculatorum and - stratorum. Legionary centurions were detached to auxiliary guard cavalry formations as instructors and commanders (previous thread). 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst

02-05-2003, 02:17 PM

Mike, I do accept your view that centurions were not mounted on the march. As I said, it was Graham Webster's observations that confused me but you cleared that up. I didn't even consider the matter of them being mounted in the line. Perhaps you thought I was inferring that from the comment about Maximus. Sorry, it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously! B.t.w. the same goes for the stuff about corrupt centurions-before somebody takes me to task about that! 
Thanks anyway for the imformation you have supplied. It's certainly given me quite a lot to think about. 
 
Caius Fabius, thanks too. I think I will take your advice on Yahoogroups.com. 
Jackie.

02-05-2003, 02:38 PM

Antoninus Lucretius and Wendy, 
You have thrown up some interesting points. To be honest, I was thinking more in modern terms on the mare vs gelding vs stallion debate. (Oops...there I go blundering in again. This is getting embarissing. Maybe I should just stick to asking innocent questions instead offering my opinion on things! 
Of course, the ancients may have had a totally different attitude towards horses. 
This seems to be a pretty fascinating issue that I would like to dig into a bit more. 
Anyone got any ideas where to find more imfo on the use of horses in the ancient world? 
I guess I have to add Ann Hyland to my book shopping list. Wendy, as you seem familiar with her work, could you recommend a particular book? 
Thanks! 
Jackie.

rekirts · 02-05-2003, 08:18 PM

Hi Jackie, 
 
The only book of Ann Hyland's I have, or have read is the one I mentioned in my previous post. It's quite informative if you are interested in the cavalry training methods of the Romans. 
 
I can't remember where I got it, but most likely ordered it online from Amazon or someplace like that. 
 
Wendy

02-06-2003, 10:48 AM

A very interesting link on roman transportation systems. Everything is there. From harnesses (NOT strangling the horses) to chariots (with suspension and steering).[url=http://www.humanist.de/rome/rts/index.html" target="top]www.humanist.de/rome/rts/index.html[/url] Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/6/03 11:53:38 am

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