Scutum

[Matthew Amt]

It could have gotten shorter simply to be easier to carry slung on the back. If you make your scutum to reach from your shoulder to the top of your knee, it will cover well in battle while not bumping your legs or interfering with your pack on the march. We don't know when the change occurred, but it was Marius that cut down the baggage train and made his troops carry more of their own stuff. Making the shield easier to carry would be a big help.

Scuta with straight sides and curved sides both appear on Trajan's Column, so I doubt there was much concern over which was easier to make. Just different styles, like helmets.

And yes, the scutum can certainly be used as a weapon even while it's protecting you! Getting knocked in the face with a shield HURTS, trust me.

Valete,

Matthew

[M.ilionario]

It could have gotten shorter simply to be easier to carry slung on the back. If you make your scutum to reach from your shoulder to the top of your knee, it will cover well in battle while not bumping your legs or interfering with your pack on the march. We don't know when the change occurred, but it was Marius that cut down the baggage train and made his troops carry more of their own stuff. Making the shield easier to carry would be a big help.

Makes sense... :roll:

And yes, the scutum can certainly be used as a weapon even while it's protecting you! Getting knocked in the face with a shield HURTS, trust me.

Yeah I know, I do that a lot of times during my personal 'battles' and being bashed with a shield is something I know isn't good, I just thought that the shield was only used as a weapon during duels and not during battles as well. :oops:

[M.ilionario]

Why was the early and mid-empire rectangular scutum replaced by the oval scutum of the late empire?

[Robert Vermaat]

The theories vary, but we think changes in battle as well as logistics.
It's easier to use an oval scutum with a longer sword, stabbing but also slashing around it. And there's the change in arms and armour, where all the army became equipped as the auxilia: hamata, oval scutum, hasta and spatha.

[M.ilionario]

Yes but wasn't the auxilia's parma narrower and longer?
How long was the spatha's blade?

[Robert Vermaat]

Indeed, an auxilia scutum was differently shaped, but then that's why they call it an evolution, don't they? I guess (we don't know for sure) that this shape was considered better? Maybe they cut off the edges of the old scutum to arrive at the new shape - but then Late Roman scuta are dished, not curved.
Spatha lenghts vary, even 4th c. spathae are not not equal lenght.

[Felix]

The major difference between the rectangular scutum and later shields may not be the shape, but the curvature. The rectangular scutum was a very heavily curved shield, which wrapped around the body and defended it from many angles of attack. The front and the bottom edge could be used offensively, but the side edges were curved back and harder to use this way. A flatter shield, even if dished, does not give as good an all-around defense; but it allows the offensive use of the side edges as well (which can be very useful) and can reach out to protect the sword arm when the sword is stretched out, which is much harder to do with a deeply curved shield.

[M.ilionario]

Please post images of:

1-Republican Scutum
2-Post-Marian Scutum
3-1st, 2nd and 3rd century Scuta and Parmae
4-Late Empire Scutum

And provide me with length and width values of each one if you know them.
Thanks :wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

Please post images of:
4-Late Empire Scutum
And provide me with length and width values of each one if you know them.

105 x 90 cm

[M.ilionario]

Thanks Robert :wink:
Any more shields? Please.....

[Crispvs]

"I recall some ancient source talking about the top and bottom foot being removed during Marius' reforms (?)."

As far as I know, that source would be Dan Peterson, in his booklet for Europa Militaire.


"The major difference between the rectangular scutum and later shields may not be the shape, but the curvature. The rectangular scutum was a very heavily curved shield, which wrapped around the body and defended it from many angles of attack. The front and the bottom edge could be used offensively, but the side edges were curved back and harder to use this way."

Don't forget here that we can neither be sure of the actual curvature of Roman shields or whether they were consistant in their curvature. As far as I know, the only surviving curving Roman shields are the Fayam scutum and the remains of three(?) from Dura. As the Fayam shield is somewhat warped and the shields from Dura had been crushed, the original curvature of each must remain a matter of conjecture.

I am not convinced of the use of the shield boss to punch people either. Using it this way would be likely to cause injury to the wrist. A more effective technique would be to force the shield forward with the shoulder in the same way you would force open a door.

Note the stance of the right hand figure in this relief from Mainz.



Crispvs

[stevesarak]

Hi,

This is something that I gave some thought to a couple of years ago, its only speculation so it may sound off base to some.

I believe that the curved shield used during the Republic reflected the style of fighting. The Republic used the Gladius to get in close and they needed the protection to go along with it. Of course there were pros and cons to this type of fighting.

Pro - is that you’re inside his swing; it’s harder for someone to effectively fight you when you’re up close and they’re using a larger sword.

Con – up close, there’s more chance of an attack from the side, so a curved shield helps protect from him swinging at the side or the guy standing next to him striking you, since your also in his range.

I believe that as the Gladius was replaced by the longer Spatha, that the style of fighting changed also. It would only make sense that if your fighting a little farter out, and that the style of forcing your way into the inside of their swing is no longer the mandate, that it makes sense to trade protection for light weight shields.

If you’re hacking away at each other, not being driving by the blood lust to step into your opponent, then a lighter shield can be moved around easier utilizing it more for that kind of fighting. It's now more of a shield and not so much first level body armor.

On some styles you may clip off the corners, making it lighter and still give the initial body protection while others may shrink in size to make more of a shield to maneuver around.

This is only my opinion, not supported by anything.

[Magnus]

On top of everything else that's been said...I also think the change may have been a defensive measure in certain formations. Overlapping shields using the ovular design of the republican scutum will create gaps in a testudo, exposing the troops inside. The rectangular scutum will not suffer from such gaps.

[Magnus]

Please post images of:

1-Republican Scutum
2-Post-Marian Scutum
3-1st, 2nd and 3rd century Scuta and Parmae
4-Late Empire Scutum

And provide me with length and width values of each one if you know them.
Thanks :wink:

You may also want to try looking at different legion's websites, as well as some of the later roman group's. You'd be delighted with what you can find on the internet as far as information on scuta goes....you can start with Matt Amt's site at www.larp.com/legioxx/ . He also has a pretty comprehensive set of links too.

[Peroni]

Crispvs wrote...

I am not convinced of the use of the shield boss to punch people either. Using it this way would be likely to cause injury to the wrist.

You're forgetting Tacitus' description of the Batavian and Tungrian auxiliaries advancing on the Caledonii at Mons Graupius.

"... Agricola ordered four battalions of Batavi and two of Tungri to bring things to the sword's point and to hand-to-hand fighting; ... when the Batavi began to exchange blows hand to hand, to strike with the bosses of their shields, to stab in the face (or 'to disfigure their faces'), and, after cutting down the enemy on the level, to push their line uphill, the other battalions, exerting themselves to emulate their charge, proceeded to slaughter the nearest enemies; ..."

Cornelius Tacitus 'The Agricola' (xxxvi.1-2)

3-1st, 2nd and 3rd century Scuta and Parmae

Based on the Valkenburg shield cover remains..

approximately 60cm x 120cm
1st century

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... F07842.gif