Masada- Fact or Fiction ?

[Ebusitanus]

Why is there so much controvery about this? Siege goes on and casualties mount due varied reasons. Those first dead get a decent burial within the fortress. Romans breach the wall and either masscare the whole lot (Not surprising at all) or find the mass suicide scene. What do you do now? Logic would tell us that if you plan to keep a garrison there and you still have your Legion plus auxiliaries at the spot after the end of the fight, you would go and burn all those rotting corpses. That still would leave room for other "fewer" remains to be found later on as initially disposed corpses by the own Jewish rebels.
Mass suicide was far from uncommon as some have suggested here. "Heroic" Josephus barely escaped from one himself. Numantia 154 BC comes to my mind and several other instances. The lack of a mass of bones does not negate the mass suicide at all much like I woudl invite you to find bone evidence on so many other town assault + following massacre. In order from such mass remains to survive some good conditions are needed before (like a burial squad and decent well preserving ground).

Personally i do not think the Romans would have made anyhow many prisoners even if offered surrender at the last stages of the siege.

[sicarii sam]

looking at my posts, I dont know if I really meant that it was beyond the scope of human nature for mass suicide. someone mentioned jonestown. I actually was thinking of that in relation to masada when I posted.

The story that josephus wrote seems so perfect and dramatic as usual that I am just suspicious. I think that its true, the romans probably had little patience by 73-74 AD and wanted to finalize the rebellion.

Someone has pointed out in an article that the Sicarii were causing problems in egypt After masada. Perhaps some escaped, some committed suicide and others fought to the death.

I cant help but think about the modern cliche, NO body NO crime. If the romans burned the 900 bodies, something surely would remain. If they threw them off the cliff, ......Im sure that some excavation or survey of the area has been done.

I guess its just interesting to me because Ive been reading josephus for the last two years and the two most controversial events are Titus not wanting to burn the temple and masada. Thanks for the input.

[Felix]

What if the bodies were burned, and then the ashes (a fairly large heap of ashes, mind you) were tossed over the cliff side? The ashes would be scattered over a rather largish area, and it would be difficult to make much of them. Has the whole perimeter of the site (i.e. at the base of the cliff face) been surveyed?

[M. Demetrius]

I doubt that the whole area has been searched for human ashes...and even if it had, chances are slim that there would be that much to analyze, since the wind does blow, and ashes would scatter.

However, in a fire made for burning bodies that way, there is quite a bit of solid remains besides ashes when the pile cools down. It takes a lot of heat to burn up bones and teeth. The Romans would more likely have been concerned with sanitation, so it's just as likely they dug a big old hole in the sand and buried the bodies a few feet deep in a heap. Man, imagine trying to sort all that out--900 bodies x 206+ bones = 185400 bones = big job.

I guess in the absence of other conflicting evidence of higher quality, shouldn't we go with rather than against the historical document?

[Jona Lendering]

I guess in the absence of other conflicting evidence of higher quality, shouldn't we go with rather than against the historical document?

Yes, I'd say so. Josephus had access to the diaries of the Roman army. His facts are pretty accurate, and I think the mass suicide can be seen as a fact. It's the interpretation that is the problem: were those who killed themselves Jews or not, bandits or religious fanatics? Josephus says they were Jewish fanatics, and we have only his word; the Romans would not have cared. Imagine a Christian army attacking a Muslim army, will the Christians really care whether they are Sunnites or Shi'ites, and -if the latter- whether they are fivers, seveners, or twelvers?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Well... about the lack of remains.....

I personally think the Romans DID clean up the site after the siege.

M.VIB.M.

[M. Demetrius]

Er, Vibius, is your avatar a P.LI Equus?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

true, hahaha i keep changing avatars, this one is from the WWII re enactment forum...

and it is indeed a P.LI EQUUS!!!

:lol:

M.VIB.M.

[Jona Lendering]

I personally think the Romans DID clean up the site after the siege.

Maybe you are right, but are there parallels for Romans burying their enemies? As far as I know, the bodies of the first battle of Cremona remained unburied.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

get some wood... build a pile... get some tar... light it... torch the remains.......

presto!! clean!

if they left the bodies at Cremona, why have they never been excavated?

M.VIB.M.

[Jona Lendering]

get some wood... build a pile... get some tar... light it... torch the remains.......
presto!! clean!

But why should they clean the mess? Expose the bodies, like those who were crucified, and show the world who's the boss.

if they left the bodies at Cremona, why have they never been excavated?

I think that's a story about the conditions of the soil, which I do not know. But every skeleton desintegrates, unless it does not; skeletons that are excavated, have always survived due to some specific condition, like a volcanic eruption (Pompeii).

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

get some wood

how much wood was there around masada? Today it is pretty much zero.

[Ebusitanus]

If I remember correctly Massada itself was taken in the early stages of the revolt and its small garrison slaughtered by the Zelots. Why would we think that the occupiers of such a strategic place built by Herod would now be a Bandit lair? When would the bandits have taken that place from the revoltees?


Wood? How do you think they threw up that ramp? Just by takeing apart the some of the, now, useless siege tower they could have burned the whole lot. Not even talking about the wooden furniture or building material found inside this herodian fortress.

[Jona Lendering]

If I remember correctly Massada itself was taken in the early stages of the revolt and its small garrison slaughtered by the Zelots.

No, it was taken by people called Sicarians, 'dagger men'. Their leader appears to have been a messianic leader in some sense, but when he proceeded to Jerusalem and had killed the high priest, he was killed by the son of the high priest (more....

Why would we think that the occupiers of such a strategic place built by Herod would now be a Bandit lair?

Because there are bones of pigs on top of the hill.

[M. Demetrius]

how much wood was there around masada? Today it is pretty much zero.

Many reports say that the whole area was clear cut of trees during the Ottoman period.

Roman histories I've read say that the timbers for the seige tower and rampart were brought in from quite a distance away. Your average tree isn't enough substance to build a tower. You have to have tall, straight trees, like the famous Cedars of Lebanon (which also grew in northern Israel, and elsewhere) for example.

Any way you look at it, though, building that structure in the desert is a difficult task! Especially when constantly in danger from archers and slingers. I've read that sometimes Roman commanders made completion quicker and easier by putting the various legions, cohorts, etc., in competition with each other, offering a prize of some sort to the winners.

So the wood for a funeral pyre would have been present, one way or the other. One version of the final seige says that the defenders built a block behind the gate from timbers. I guess they had some of those on hand, if that account is true. So there was wood?