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I am in full agreement with you Graham, I was hoping that by posting this on RAT historians with some clout such as yourself, Adrian Goldswoerthy, Phil Sabin, Michael Whitby and others may be able to contact the relevant authorities and at least find out who gave authorisation for this 'restoration' and whether they actually considered the preservation of the Late Roman monument fragments in the foundations.
I did discuss this with some locals over in Istanbul after I got over the shock at seeing the 'restoration' and the lack of archeologists at the other areas i Mentioned. Several asked why I was there and one nodded sadly when it was for 'Romans'. They explained that whilst of course they were interested in the Romans, as far as they were concerned they were Ottomans and Turks, and their prime concern was the objects relating to their cultural background. So anything not turkish or Ottoman does not receive the same kind of respect.
I am really surprised that a major city such as Istanbul does not have a team whose job it is to supervise restorations or the digging of trenches through historical sites. It would be as if anyone could dig up the streets of London willy nilly without someone being there to see what else was coming up.
My hope is that the fragments that Michael and others managed to photograph before this, what I consider historical vandalism, took place are still there but either behind the brick and concrete or below the built up grass area.
In defence of the Turks, the fragment of the infantry still visible was built into the foundations upside down, I believe other photographs show this to be true.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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That attitude comes as no surprise unfortunately!
Just ask the Greeks and other nation who were subject to Ottoman rule!
It would be very nice indeed if these monuments were treated with respect
By those who are in control of their destinies!
Probably the only way to save them would be to buy the sculptures and them carve
Off the pretty bits, leaving the structure behind!
Now that is the cynic in me speaking!
I hope it will prove otherwise!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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I don't want to start a politic polemic but all the last news from Turkey are not good, I don't know if the pause in integration process into the UE, is the cause but lately I read a lot of really bad news from one of the most important nations of the Mediterranean area, this is not only sad but also frankly scary.
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Btw was the cenotaph of Gordian III ever rediscovered? I assume it must've been at least partly destroyed since Marcellinus said it was visible a long way off yet it couldn't have remained conspicuous as there have been efforts to relocate it.
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The condition of the reliefs in Istanbul is indeed disappointing. Mind you, things were not ideal in the 1970s. I recall that, on my first visit, someone had leaned his bicycle against the 'Suppliant Soldiers' and I had to wait until he moved it before I could take my photograph. Still, the reliefs were all visible then. (In this post, I identify the reliefs by the captioning that I used in the 4th Century Gear thread.)
The situation today is mixed. The reliefs on the south side of the building facing the road seem to be pretty much as they were when I was in the city. The vegetation is higher and it is possible that part of the reliefs may be below soil level. That would be a difference and would apply particularly to the 'Helmeted Soldier' and 'Right Shoulder of a Soldier' which are underneath the 'Soldiers by a Wall'. Adrian may be able to help on this point.
The 'Battle Scene' is now completely enclosed by the structure providing access to the entrance to the building on the west side. An attempt has been made to keep it visible by installing a glass panel above it but this has been frustrated by the failure to keep the glass free from dirt and condensation. Access may be possible through what appears to be a moveable panel beside the 'Soldiers by a Wall' but it is not clear whether this provides enough room to clean the glass and to keep the relief free from vegetation. Again, Adrian may have some input on this. As it is, it is apparently impossible either to see the relief clearly or to assess its condition through the glass. In theory, it need not be in a worse state than it was when I took my photograph.
The most worrying aspect is the fate of the 'Suppliant Soldiers'. When I was there, they were fully visible apart from some build-up of dirt and debris at the very bottom. Later, a flight of concrete steps was constructed against them. The present situation is as in Adrian's photographs of the right of the building as seen from the front. The relief and steps are nowhere to be seen. The approximate position of the relief is above the fragment of column drum (if that is what it is). It seems to me unlikely that it is covered up by the later works. If it were still in situ, bearing in mind the attempt to keep the 'Battle Scene' on view, it seems probable that a similar attempt would have been made to display it. There seem to be two possibilities. First, the relief may have been destroyed when the steps were removed. If so, at least some fragments should have survived, in which case one can only hope that they are preserved somewhere. The second is that the importance of the relief was recognised and it was removed for eventual display in the university or the museum. Let us hope that this is the case.
It seems that two things need to be done: first, that whoever is responsible for the upkeep of the reliefs should be identified and persuaded to carry out their duty; secondly, that the whereabouts of the 'Suppliant Soldiers' be established and, if the relief still exists, plans for its display disclosed. Do any members, especially those in the academic community, have or know anyone who has contact with someone in the university or museum in Istanbul who can cast light on these issues?
EDIT There are supposed to be pictures with this post but I can't get the bloody things to attach. I may have to start all over again. If this results in a double post, I apologise.
RE-EDIT Having tried to attach the pictures twice more but without success, I have amended the text to remove the references to them.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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The condition of the reliefs in Istanbul is indeed disappointing. Mind you, things were not ideal in the 1970s. I recall that, on my first visit, someone had leaned his bicycle against the 'Suppliant Soldiers' and I had to wait until he moved it before I could take my photograph. Still, the reliefs were all visible then. (In this post, I identify the reliefs by the captioning that I used in the 4th Century Gear thread.)
The situation today is mixed. The reliefs on the south side of the building facing the road seem to be pretty much as they were when I was in the city:
(I have rotated the second image so that the figures are the right way up and more easy to relate to my pictures.)
The vegetation is higher and it is possible that part of the reliefs may be below soil level. That would be a difference and would apply particularly to the 'Helmeted Soldier' and 'Right Shoulder of a Soldier' which are underneath the first image above, 'Soldiers by a Wall'. Adrian may be able to help on this point.
The 'Battle Scene' is now completely enclosed by the structure providing access to the entrance to the building on the west side. An attempt has been made to keep it visible by installing a glass panel above it but this has been frustrated by the failure to keep the glass free from dirt and condensation. Access may be possible through what appears to be a moveable panel beside the 'Soldiers by a Wall' but it is not clear whether this provides enough room to clean the glass and to keep the relief free from vegetation. Again, Adrian may have some input on this. As it is, it is apparently impossible either to see the relief clearly or to assess its condition through the glass. In theory, it need not be in a worse state than it was when I took my photograph.
The most worrying aspect is the fate of the 'Suppliant Soldiers'. When I was there, they were fully visible apart from some build-up of dirt and debris at the very bottom. Later, a flight of concrete steps was constructed against them as seen in this photograph:
The present situation is as in Adrian's photograph:
The relief and steps are nowhere to be seen. I have indicated the approximate position of the relief. It seems to me unlikely that it is covered up by the later works. If it were still in situ, bearing in mind the attempt to keep the 'Battle Scene' on view, it seems probable that a similar attempt would have been made to display it. There seem to be two possiblities. First, the relief may have been destroyed when the steps were removed. If so, at least some fragments should have survived, in which case one can only hope that they are preserved somewhere. The second is that the importance of the relief was recognised and it was removed for eventual display in the university or the museum. Let us hope that this is the case.
It seems that two things need to be done: first, that whoever is responsible for the upkeep of the reliefs should be identified and persuaded to carry out their duty; secondly, that the whereabouts of the 'Suppliant Soldiers' be established and, if the relief still exists, plans for its display disclosed. Do any members, especially those in the academic community, have or know anyone who has contact with someone in the university or museum in Istanbul who can cast light on these issues?
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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EDIT This was another failed attempt to post the pictures. Not only did it come up with a blank post but now I cannot even delete that. Does anyone know what is going on?
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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Have you tried editing in the pictures in an existing message? There is something going on with the spam filter, reportedly, but many seem to have found this workaround to work for them.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)
Saepe veritas est dura.
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Are the pictures linked?
Also, we've been having trouble with posting images for a while now. Jasper knows more about whats causing it. Your best bet is to go to imgur.com, then use "image link" in advanced post, copy the BB code on the imgur photo page to the box, and then insert the pictures.
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OMG UFB..... :? :? :?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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Very sad that these are regarded as "just other building stones". Sigh.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)
Saepe veritas est dura.
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I'd like to hit these guys over the head with a crowbar, to be honest.
But that's illegal, so moving on...
I think that something really needs to be done about this, and that the Turkish people need to take the elements of cultures besides their own into consideration regarding historical works. Covering up a brick is one thing, but what's next? Tearing down the Theodosian walls for apartment blocks?
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The Collision of Cultures often produces conflicting values, Evan. Think of how many Indian Mounds have been opened with excavation equipment, and the debris sorted through and pilfered, then the area leveled and paved. It's not different, wherever you go.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)
Saepe veritas est dura.
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That's true, but don't forget most countries try to preserve important sites or works, or at least move them to a safe location.
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