Language used by FIlmMakers

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

You are cursed dogs...

BTW the entire effort of the latin teacher shows he has no life...\\



M.VIB.M.

[Marcus Didius Severus Jul]

You are cursed dogs...

BTW the entire effort of the latin teacher shows he has no life...\\



M.VIB.M.

Thanks !

[Nathan Ross]

Mention should probably be made of The Eagle, which had the Savage Caledonians speaking (modern) Gaelic - they employed a load of native-speaking extras from western Scotland for the purpose. It was one of the few nice touches in the film, I thought, even if 2nd-century Caledonians would not have spoken that language anyway...

Apparently Jamie Bell learned Gaelic for the film, and by the end of the shoot (according to the director's commentary) was good enough to converse with the native-speaking extras (although I suspect they were humouring him!)

The Head Baddie, meanwhile, was actually a Moroccan actor, and had to have all his lines translated into French, and then into Gaelic, with the result that he initially sounded like he was speaking French... he was then told to pronounce the words like Arabic, which was rather better - although he still sounded as if, alone of his people, he spoke Berber-inflected Arabic...

Which just goes to show some of the difficulties in this approach! :-)

PLUS - the use of latin by the Roman soldiers in Passion of the Christ was probably wrong anyway. Eastern auxiliaries and legionaries alike seem to have spoken Greek!...

[Sean Manning]

PLUS - the use of latin by the Roman soldiers in Passion of the Christ was probably wrong anyway. Eastern auxiliaries and legionaries alike seem to have spoken Greek!...

And while I think we have a good idea of how the "educated literary" form of Latin was pronounced from Cicero's day to late antiquity (and a tolerable guess to how vulgar Latin in different areas sounded), I understand that Greek pronunciation is more uncertain (did the tonal system die out at some point?)

The director being a very conservative Catholic may have had something to do with the choice of Latin in Passion of the Christ. At least they used Aramaic not Hebrew ...

[joeandmich]

I wouldn't mind seeing an epic movie about the battle of Kadesh in ancient Egyptian and Hittite.

Perhaps ancient Egyptian would be possible..but Hittite?

Would anyone know the difference?

[Robert Vermaat]

PLUS - the use of Latin by the Roman soldiers in Passion of the Christ was probably wrong anyway. Eastern auxiliaries and legionaries alike seem to have spoken Greek!...

In the marketplace perhaps, but the Heerssprache of the Roman army was Latin until at least the mid-7th century. It's comparable to the modern Israeli army I think - recruits from all over the world, but in the army they only speak Ivrit (modern Hebrew). Most recruits from eastern provinces would have spoken Greek, but als Syriac, other languages. It was easier to teach them all latin, which I guess was what happened.

Did Mel Gibson's Roman indeed speak Latin? To me it sounded more like Italian. :mrgreen:

[joeandmich]

PLUS - the use of Latin by the Roman soldiers in Passion of the Christ was probably wrong anyway. Eastern auxiliaries and legionaries alike seem to have spoken Greek!...

In the marketplace perhaps, but the Heerssprache of the Roman army was Latin until at least the mid-7th century. It's comparable to the modern Israeli army I think - recruits from all over the world, but in the army they only speak Ivrit (modern Hebrew). Most recruits from eastern provinces would have spoken Greek, but als Syriac, other languages. It was easier to teach them all latin, which I guess was what happened.

Did Mel Gibson's Roman indeed speak Latin? To me it sounded more like Italian. :mrgreen:

The real question is did they speak Latin with Italian accents or British accents as Hollywood seems to favor for Romans?

[Graham Sumner]

The real question is did they speak Latin with Italian accents or British accents as Hollywood seems to favor for Romans?

Hollywood used to favour British accents and actors as Romans but it is a bit more cosmopolitan these days. In 'The Eagle' the leading Romans were American, in 'Centurion' British but German led while in Gladiator of course, Australian, American, Irish and (harking back to the good old days) some British Senators.

In The Passion they were Italian or Hungarian but at the flagellation they did look a lot like the shaven headed English bad guys from the torture scene in Braveheart, I wonder if that was accidental!

Graham.

[Marcus F.]

according to imdb.com the Roman soldiers were Italian plus one guy from Poland.

[Marcus Didius Severus Jul]

PLUS - the use of Latin by the Roman soldiers in Passion of the Christ was probably wrong anyway. Eastern auxiliaries and legionaries alike seem to have spoken Greek!...

In the marketplace perhaps, but the Heerssprache of the Roman army was Latin until at least the mid-7th century. It's comparable to the modern Israeli army I think - recruits from all over the world, but in the army they only speak Ivrit (modern Hebrew). Most recruits from eastern provinces would have spoken Greek, but als Syriac, other languages. It was easier to teach them all latin, which I guess was what happened.

Did Mel Gibson's Roman indeed speak Latin? To me it sounded more like Italian. :mrgreen:

I agree thatLatin was likely used in the Roman Army as the official language; however this does not exclude of course the use of other languages depending on the nationality of the individual soldiers. The accent ? I guess it was heavily infuenced by the region where the recruits were enrolled to the Army and even more by the place where a given legion was stationing. Over the centuries,the share of non-latin soldiers increased dramatically with people coming from all over the world and all of them speaking some basic Army Latin, As such, I would accept and I would find more realistic a Latin spoken with different accents. The German guard of Julius Caesar not sure spoke the same Latin of Cicerone. Of course experts would always dislike it, but in order to recreate a bit of the flavour of that age I would still prefer actors pronouncing Latin even differently one another as likely did in the Legions? It would still put me more into the context rather than listining plain British English accent.

[AshleySC]

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
I, for one, am just happy that film makers are having Romans speaking Latin, having grown up on WW2 films where Germans never spoke German (except on very rare and notable occasions)just badly accented English. "Ve haff vays of making you talk!"
As for the English being cast as Romans...come on, people...L. Olivier IS Crassius in Spartacus. I would think it comes from old school H-wood thinking that Brit accents are more sophisticated-sounding and urbane to American ears.
As for foreign-accented Latin, maybe it would be a good idea to cast REAL Germans as Caesar's guards, just a thought.

[jno]

Well, if we have upper class Romans speaking upper class English, the common legionary should speak Cockney, or maybe Geordie (I know, I know, it's already been done! :-? ).

Gibson's Romans' Church Latin was just too much -- I'm glad I don't know how the Aramaic should have sounded! The effect of Church Latin is so widespread, that it is probably inescapable -- unless the film if German-made, they have a pretty good grasp of Classical Latin pronunciation ("Kaiser" is quite a good rendition of "Caesar"). But, I'm afraid "Wenny, weedy, weeky!" would only elicit guffaws in English-speaking or Western European audiences. And "Wehrkinghetorix" would give any good Frenchman apoplexy.

Better not worry too much about language -- just make it something the audience can understand. They'll mess up most everything else anyway!

Like with the subject of films generally: if I let myself be put off by historical inaccuracies, I'd never be able to enjoy any movie set longer ago than last Tuesday. Just suspend disbelief (like with science fiction), and enjoy what you can.

Hilaritas!

jno

[Alanus]

For something different, I'd make a silent Roman movie with subtitles in Armenian (as spoken by the Romans), in Ubangi (as spoken by the Germans), and in German (as spoken by the Nubians). The movie would be traditional, black & white, with the frames flipping just fast enough that everyone walked like the Keystone Cops. A good subject might be a remake of The Eagle, where all the "seal people" actually flopped around on the rocks while grunting in Whalish. (A lot like Welsh only longer... to pronounce) :mrgreen:

Oh! And for the Sarmatians? They would have traditional Northeastern Iranian names, like Tristan, Bors, and Lancealot. In Lancelot's case, he would be an expert with the contus, even using it during meals and while sleeping. :mrgreen:

Most of the movie could be shot in "blue-screen"-- or in this case, "black and white" screen. And the actors, to avoid embarrassment in viewers identifying who they actually were, could be blue-colored and wear dreadnaughts while shooting a bow left-handed, fingers turned up-side down, with fiberglass arrows painted exactly to look like carbon-fibre ones... for authentic Gollywood realism, while Vercingetorix swoops down on the back of a flying auroch (its horns clipped for additional safety).

(To pacify the Animal Rights people, the auroch would be mechanical... or at least a member of the Screen Aurochs' Guild.)

For truly authentic visuals, the Romans would be played by Irishmen, the Sarmatians by Mexicans, and Alexander's wife by an Afro-American with implants.

This movie would be about as accurate as most other Roman ones, I think. It would solve the problem of using authentic verbiage. And with all the bad language cut from it, even a 5-year-old could watch it... maybe in 3D. (The extended re-release special director's cut with 16.4 addition minutes of dialog (shown on a black screen after the credits roll).

It'll make millions of sesterces! Millions! (enough to buy a live mullet)

[joeandmich]

Alanus,

That was priceless. Maybe we should let the cast of Monty Python and Saturday Night Live have a go of it.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

It is not at all a certainty that Latin was used as the main language by the troops in the East. Yes probably the higher officers and magistrates appointed by Rome was Latin, but there have been many many finds of Greek ostraca and papyri which can be placed in a military context. The mixture between Latin and Greek is there. Probably a legionary Roman citizen did know Latin, as well as some of the officers in the Auxilia, especially those in command who were of Equestrian status. It is therefore uncertain what language should be used.

M.VIB.M.