New Information on the Linothorax front? APA Meeting 2009

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I would certianly agree with the idea of quilting being stiff. My subarmalis is made of this construction, and the first thing that came to mind was the
similarity to descriptions of linothorax in regards to stiffness!
This is from at least 3 years ago.

[John Conyard]

The well reasoned and logical arguments put forward last year by Paullus Scipio, the self-confessed Australian "nut", carried great weight with me. Quilted armour definately. Leather tube and yoke armour, possibly. I even made one. There is a picture of it on http://www.comitatus.net/fabrica.htm

I remember during the debate various people suggesting the tube wrapped around the body more than once for greater strength. This seemed a very good idea, but I have not heard the idea proposed since.

[Dan Howard]

There are at least three Greek illustrations showing a linothorax that is double-breasted. I don't think they were all constructed in such a manner though.
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... wtopic=262

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Certenly would make sense to have a double layer like tha tto protect the fron of abdomen.

[PMBardunias]

A while back I suggested that Alum tawed leather might be a candidate for a white leather spolas of the type we see on vases (if they are leather). Since then I have learned that Alum is also used with textiles. It makes them fire-resistant and is also used in a stiffening process like starching. I assume it also makes fabrics white. Does anyone know more about the use of alum and fabric? What about the concept of stiffeing the fabric itself as well as adjusting the stitching distance, anyone tried it?

[Paullus Scipio]

John wrote:

the self-confessed Australian "nut"

.......touche John! D lol: :lol: :lol:

It is correct that as Jason Hoffman has observed there are at least 5 'variations' on Greek Tube-and-Yoke corselets, not counting those of other nations/cultures, as one might expect in a pre-mass production era of individual craftsmen. In fact, and depending on how one chooses to classify them, there are many more variations ( c.f. the vexed question of Roman helmet typologies currently being discussed on another thread).
Publication of Jason's long-awaited study is hopefully going to be sooner rather than later!

The red figure vase Dan has put up is the most emphatic depiction of a clearly 'double-breasted' Tube-and-Yoke corselet, and most others that I have seen are more open to interpretation. I would agree with Dan that the double breasted variation, judging by it's frequency of appearance in Art, is not of the 'typical' cut.

The majority seem to be like the interpretation of the cut of the Tube-and-Yoke on the Achilles vase, seen here, and clearly single-breasted. This can be best seen on p.38 of Connolly's "Greek Armies" or p.57 of his "Greece and Rome at War".

[John Conyard]

From memory I believe alum is used in the dyeing process as a mordant to hold the dye in the material. Some riparian towns well known for dyeing are on alum rich water supplies. Certainly hides could be alum dressed, and became very pale.

[Jason Hoffman]

Just to throw my two cents worth, I tend to think double fronted was the predominant type, mainly across the stomach. If you have a look at the depictions the difference in chest and stomach is interesting! again not everyone made because there was no 'standardisation' in this age.

[Kineas]

Hi--Just my 2 cents worth.

First, I use Alum-buff leather all the time in my other hobby--that's what British Army belts were made of as long as they were "white". Various guards units around the world still use the stuff, and so do good Napoleonic and Rev War reenactors. Poorer ones use "white" leather which is visually different--and has other differences as well.

I'm about 1/4 of the way through a tawed leather and scale corselet and I'll post some pictures on a sep. thread--not because mine is anything wonderful, but so you can see some tawed leather as I get the pieces cut. Basically, it varies from dead white to pale buff, is "napped" pn both sides, and is rather stiff in all "weights". I happen to agree with Paullus in my doubts about linen, but I, too, agree that you can quilt linen into being as stiff as you need it to be.

The issue is that all the tawed leather on earth now comes from the UK at about $40 Canadian per square foot, thanks to the current currency issues. I can't build an entire corselet from it. Odd, that I'm spending 60 hours cutting scales to SAVE MONEY. LOL.

Also worth noting that I've now seen several sources suggesting that tawing leather was on of Athens largest industries.

Finally, my problem with the "linothorax" is not "battle" but "daily life." Has anyone built one with period glues? And worn it for ten days in the rain? That's not some sort of cheap shot--I'll be wearing all my Greek kit camping--(in the snow in three weeks...) to see if it will last the course.

[barcid]

Kineas ,tawed leather sounds very good ,post up soon please even work in progress is interesting 8)

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Good Kineas. Please post progress pics. And about the double front layer,lets not forget that Philip's iron linothorax-stylr cuirass had doeble iron front layers!
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php ... =2&c_id=35
Khairete
Giannis

[Kineas]

Some Tawed leather pics

I'm off to a Rev War event and then to Baltimore for a week and may not get to post again. Please pardon the out of period equipment.

This is "buff" or "Alum buff" or "Tawed."





This is another shot of the same, in a roll so you can see thickness and weight.



This is my 1777 period sword belt from my officer's kit, made in 2002. The whistle case had NOT been cleaned, and the sword belt has been cleaned repeatedly by light abrasion. No oil ever used. probably seen 30 days of rain, some snow, been slept in, etc.



Hope this helps alll of you visualize tawed leather. Happy New Year! I'll post the start up of my corselet when I return.

[John Conyard]

In the early 90's I had an excellent and very expensive buff coat for English civil War re-enactment. It felt bullet proof, or at least proof against shot.

Kineas, I'm enjoying "Tyrant" in paperback. A couple of years ago when I was riding every day I messed around on my "Roman" horse bareback. It was amusing but the thought of doing any serious stuff without my four horned saddle frankly scares me. It's a great read and I recommend it.

[Kineas]

John, I'm an average rider at best and I'm lucky to have a dedicated expert to help me with javelin throwing and etc. But it really isn't that hard. Or maybe I just grew used to falling off as a kid.

Thanks very much for the kind words about Tyrant I. Book II is out in a few days, at least in the EU and UK.

[Paralus]

Has anyone actually made a successful glued linen item using glues available to ancient Greeks?

Given that none have survived (aside from small "patches" of supposedly glued linen), one would have to posit just what glues were available. The project (Prof Aldrete) states this:

The highly authentic glues with which we achieved the best results included glue made from rabbit skin and glue made from flax seeds, both of which would presumably have been widely available in the ancient Greek world.

When Alexander is seriously wounded after scaling the walls of a town he is wearing metal armour. When Darius' wife mistakes Hephaistion for Alexander both men are likely wearing expensive metallic armour.

That is, of course, a possibility; perhaps a distinct possibility. The sources, from recollection, don’t say so though. The armour Alexander is depicted wearing in the "Alexander mosaic" seems most definitely to be a "linothorax". Whether or not the artist's depiction is correct is another matter. Perspective and scale are not high on the list. I don’t have Curtius at the office but Diodorus and Arrain have the same thing to say about the visit of Alexander to the “royal tentâ€