Was Bede English?

[Ron Andrea]

The question was not whether the Venerable Bede was British, but English. I suspect he thought he was. 8)

I, on the other hand, have no claim to being English or British, being an American of native and Germanic heritage, but--you know--melting pot though it is, or was, America is still culturally English. (That ought to start a fight.) :roll:

So, I guess I'm about as English (on the going away side) as Bede was (on the coming in side). :wink:

[Crispvs]

As far as where Bede himself came from, in his 'History of the English Church and People' (Historia Ecclesiastica Anglorum [off the top of my head]) he describes how he was given as a child by his parents to the monastery of St Peter at Monkwearmouth to become a monk. A few years later a plague ravaged the community and only he and the abbot, Benedict Biscop, survived. They travelled north to Jarrow and joined the community of St Paul, Jarrow, which was later twinned with Monkwearmouth, so that Bede is able to talk of himself as coming from the twin monastry of St Peter and St Paul. As his parents gave him to the monastery at Monkwearmouth it seems most likely that they lived reasonably locally to it. Given that place name evidence strongly suggests an almost total replacement of the the earlier Romano-British people with Germanic people who quickly came to be seen and to see themselves as English (of Anglish, technically) it seems unlikely that Bede could have been anything other than English both ethnically and culturally. It is also worth noting that normally monks came from more well off sections of society, also arguing against him not being of English origin, as his family was obviously not enslaved or needing every available hand to keep the household going, and was more likely to have been of the local ruling class of thegns.

As far as Northumbria's presence in Domesday Book is concerned, it is worth remembering the the Harrying of the North in the 1070s would have left Northumbria with very little which was worth the Domesday heralds recording. It took nearly three hundred years to recover.

Crispvs

[Nathan Beal]

We don't know what ethnic background Bede had as no one has been able to test it as far as I know.

You see (and apologies if this skirts closely to modern politics) i'm not sure you have to be born in the UK to be British (or born in England to be English). Part of the problem here is that the English have a very under developed sense of what it is to be English (especially when compared with the US) so there are no hard and fast rules as to what makes somebody English now (and thus we have no basis for talking about the past).

Certainly the reality is that he lived here held a position of authority within an institution of the country (or more specifically one of the countries that makes up modern england) and most importantly spoke the language that then evolves into modern English.

This said he did not live in a country that occupied the same basic land area as modern England (only a portion there-of) and there were several other kingdoms of 'english speaking people' at the same time.

Bede in his writings was dealing with a population that did not see themselves as an offshoot Germanic population, but one that had their own language and customs that grew out of their origins. The Normans starting with William retained many of their cultural practices (we had to wait a fair while after the conquest for a monarch to speak English again) and whilst England was an important part of the Normal dominions they identified themselves culturally separate from the majority of the population of England for a long period.

With regards to the evolution of language the reality is that the Norman rulers of this country did bring a lot of nouns with them. Basically if it's a finished product then the odds are the word is probably old French in origin, but anything that is growing or being produced is more likely to be germanc in origin.

I had a point when i started writing this, I'm not sure if i have made it. But interesting discussion nonetheless.

N.

[Robert Vermaat]

I think much of the answer to this question (like that about Romans stop being Roman) depends on our modern concepts.

Bede was, as we know from his writings, very much aware of 'those other guys, the British. he knew full well that 'the English' had taken paart of the island from the British, and sometimes you read between the lines that he is trying to justify that.

A bit like the situation regarding Native Americans or Aboriginals.

Bede, however, concentrates on the religious side of things. You get this very sharply when he describes the conversion of the English (which I believe was incomplete ih his day?) and the role of the British. His view is that the Christian British should have converted the Germanic invaders, but declined to do so. When Augustine lands, the British hear him but reject his mission. I'm not going to discuss why or if that was good or bad, but Bede certainly had a strong opinion about that! In his view, the Brrits deserved all that was coming.
This culminates in his description of the Battle of Chester, where praying unarmed British monks are cut down in their hundreds by (pagan!) Mercian soldiers. Bede approves, for the reasons above.

[muskitear]

I like to think I am 'English' I was born in Wokingham which is in ENGLAND it says so on my birth certificate
We have the Scottish, Welsh and Irish who defend their identities with pride.

My father was Irish..So I could say I was Anglo/Irish. If I wanted but I dont.
My mothers side were 'Jeromes' who as far back as 1640 were village
brewers. However, they were born here and therefore had no other identity than being English at that time.
Their original line however was from Norman/French.
I read somewhere that even though the Normans conquered us we never spoke to them in their language..There was them and us for a very long time apparently.
ENGLISH is being born in that bit which isnt Scottish or Welsh. 'British' is the invention of PC which became compulsory in 1997
:wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmm, Bede does have a French sound to it......... :?

[Crispvs]

I think you may find that the original spelling was more like 'Baeda'.

Crispvs

[mcbishop]

No he was a Jordy

Sadly, the evidence (cited elsewhere, entering the monastery at Monkwearmouth aged seven) might suggest he was a Mackem, rather than a Tackem. Always assuming that he wasn't like one of the 'Anglo-Saxon' burials at Bamburgh, which oxygen isotope analysis suggested was an immigrant from the west coast of Scotland. After all, the Synod of Whitby (which saw the end of Ionan 'Celtic' Christianity) only predated Bede by some eight years. Anybody care to take up the Scottishness of Beda? Thought not... ;-)

Mike Bishop

[fasta]

No he was a Jordy

Sadly, the evidence (cited elsewhere, entering the monastery at Monkwearmouth aged seven) might suggest he was a Mackem, rather than a Tackem. Always assuming that he wasn't like one of the 'Anglo-Saxon' burials at Bamburgh, which oxygen isotope analysis suggested was an immigrant from the west coast of Scotland. After all, the Synod of Whitby (which saw the end of Ionan 'Celtic' Christianity) only predated Bede by some eight years. Anybody care to take up the Scottishness of Beda? Thought not... ;-) )

Mike Bishop

Good point Sir.I'd forgotten about those finds.Wonder if anyone did a DNA test on them?

Still it wouldn't of answered the question about Bede but does show that things aren't as clear cut as they sometimes seem.

[PhilusEstilius]

I think you got it just a bit wrong Mike as Tackem is also Durham, it is the land of the Mack and Tack. Where of course God's country or Northumberland is the land of Meck and Teck. However he could have been French for he did originate and live on the other side of the river that devides us from them.

[Coenwulf]

May I throw in a slightly off-topic question while I have our British cousins in plentiful supply? Why does the numbering of English kings seemingly start with William I? Edward Longshanks is Edward I whereas there were at least two Edwards, the Martyr and the Confessor, before him. I've never had this question satisfactorily answered. Thanks.
Henry Irving
Legio XX

[Robert Vermaat]

May I throw in a slightly off-topic question

Only if you add your real (first) name to your signature. It's a forum rule.

[Coenwulf]

May I throw in a slightly off-topic question

Only if you add your real (first) name to your signature. It's a forum rule.

My real (first) name is Henry. I put it in the body of my question above
Legion XX. So, you confuse me. Where else does it need to go? Thanks.

[Ceannt]

I like to think I am 'English' I was born in Wokingham which is in ENGLAND it says so on my birth certificate
We have the Scottish, Welsh and Irish who defend their identities with pride.

My father was Irish..So I could say I was Anglo/Irish. If I wanted but I dont.
My mothers side were 'Jeromes' who as far back as 1640 were village
brewers. However, they were born here and therefore had no other identity than being English at that time.
Their original line however was from Norman/French.
I read somewhere that even though the Normans conquered us we never spoke to them in their language..There was them and us for a very long time apparently.
ENGLISH is being born in that bit which isnt Scottish or Welsh. 'British' is the invention of PC which became compulsory in 1997
:wink:

Not to outdo you but On my mothers side of the family (O'Callaghans) they can trace their family up to around 850A.D), on my dads (Kents) 1171A.D A Norman knight So i am kind of french BEAT THAT

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

May I throw in a slightly off-topic question

Only if you add your real (first) name to your signature. It's a forum rule.

My real (first) name is Henry. I put it in the body of my question above
Legion XX. So, you confuse me. Where else does it need to go? Thanks.

There is an area in your profile setup that allows you to put your name in it, called the signature. Saves having to do it every post!