Parma

[M. Demetrius]

Edge, I didn't feel put down. It's ok to disagree with anybody, and since I couldn't remember the source for the 36" (and IIRC, they didn't say if it was for a signifer, aquilfer, cornicen, or parade model display unit) there's no reason for me to feel that you were being confrontational.

What I was saying was that a 36" circle shield was a little ungainly, and a direct thrust near its circumference puts a lot of stress on the wrist. A 24" shield is about at the limit of good defense for the type of combat we're depicting, is what I said. I didn't say that they didn't make them that way, or smaller, but most of the other threads about parmae seem to conclude that 30" is a typical size.

Anyway, a couple of inches smaller isn't unbelievable, I think, and the painting on yours is very beautiful, indeed. As mentioned above, I rather doubt that the signifer would be thrust in the main part of that battle as a normal matter of course. They could and would fight, but that wasn't their primary function in the unit, after all.

I remain unruffled.

[PhilusEstilius]

Hello Edge. I was not meaning it to sound to overpowering, you are correct of course we can only go on what evidence is current.

[Marcus Mummius]

I'm still unsure of the function of the parma on a -ifer. How can one wield the signum/vexillum, parma and gladius at the same time? Or do you think the parma was always slung and not carried during combat? Puzzling...

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

Don't most depictions of first century AD standard bearers show a larger oval shield, more like what auxiliaries carried? The small round shield shows up in the 2nd century, but I'm not sure what the earliest evidence is for it. Mind you, *our* signifer in Legio XX has a parma, too! So I'm not in a position to get too holy about it! Just questioning the answers, as usual...

Matthew

[Gaius_Calvus]

Roger all, folks!! Great points.

@ Peroni -- so, the "Castleford tegimen from which we can extrapolate a diameter for the shield. (ARMA vol. 1 no. 2 1989)" has a large diameter, or is it also around 60cm? I could not tell from your post.

@ Dave -- no worries, Brother. I knew you did not take it that way. I just have trouble agreeing that a signifer would carry a parma whose diameter exceeds the width of a standard legionary scutum (36" is wider than a scutum), your points about combat notwithstanding. Since I presume you are speaking from first-hand experience, I would assume with needlefelt or somesuch that what you are saying about the pressure on the wrist, etc, is the case. I personally am not aware of any accounts in that level of detail of Roman combat with a round shield so I am hesitant to engage in a discussion on utility with no first-hand accounts.

@ Brian -- no worries. I just wanted to ensure that you understood that by disagreeing with Dave, I was not belittling him.

@ Marcus -- the latter is my conjecture, Brother. My assumption (and I fully admit that this is an assumption) is that the signifer would be carrying the signum in both hands, and the parma would be slung. If he absolutely HAD to fight, then since the signum could be planted in the ground, I would again assume (which means it could be total BS) that he would plant it and then wield gladius and scutum.

@ Matthew -- agree completely. In all honesty, we went with this parma because it seems to be a re-enactment "tradition" as opposed to any direct 1st Century evidence. I'll be the first to admit that we are probably wrong, but at least the paint job will be good! :lol:

Regards to all,

Edge

[PhilusEstilius]

PS. Edge. I also think the paint job is very good, however the design does appear to have a Nautical flavour to it is there reason for this ?

[Marcus Mummius]

PS. Edge. I also think the paint job is very good, however the design does appear to have a Nautical flavour to it is there reason for this ?

Some believe Neptunus was associated with Legio XI because of their prestations during the battle at Actium.

I represent the same legion. On my parma I've painted a bull, Neptunus and Jupiter.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Marcus is absolutely right -- that's why we elected for some of the nautical design elements.

[PhilusEstilius]

Thank you very much gentlemen I had in my mind somthing like the 10th Fretensis.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

PS. Edge. I also think the paint job is very good, however the design does appear to have a Nautical flavour to it is there reason for this ?

I selected all the elements on the parma having the battle of Actium in mind. As it has been pointed out, LEG XI participated in the battle. Three of the five (I think) found inscriptions bearing the title "Actiacus" mention LEG XI (the other two do not indicate a legion).

I picked and designed all of the elements of the parma based on known artifacts, including mosaics, coins, monuments, etc. For instance, a Victoria standing on a trireme is a known motif from the coins of Augustus, celebrating the victory at Actium. Neptune is known to be associated with the legion from the coins of Gallienus, which also might be a consequence of its participation in the battle.

The umbo will also display a relation to the battle when it is done.

[Peroni]

@ Peroni -- so, the "Castleford tegimen from which we can extrapolate a diameter for the shield. (ARMA vol. 1 no. 2 1989)" has a large diameter, or is it also around 60cm? I could not tell from your post.

giving a diameter of between 40 -50cm (20")

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Avete!

Don't most depictions of first century AD standard bearers show a larger oval shield, more like what auxiliaries carried? The small round shield shows up in the 2nd century, but I'm not sure what the earliest evidence is for it. Mind you, *our* signifer in Legio XX has a parma, too! So I'm not in a position to get too holy about it! Just questioning the answers, as usual...

The leather finds referred above are dated to 70-80 C.E.

[jkaler48]

So is their any evidence for troops other than "Command staff" using the Parma in later periods. Perhaps slingers archers Artillerymen?

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

So if I understand you all correctly, the general concensus appears to be in the vicinity of 20"-24" in diameter with a 5/16" - 7/16" thickness??

[Gaius_Calvus]

That's the way I read it, too, Phillip. Ours pictured earlier in the thread conforms to those dimensions.

Regards,

Edge