The Pilum from Marius to Nero - Peter Connolly

[Paullus Scipio]

Martin/Nerva wrote:-

Oh no, this is not at all what I intended...Look lads, we had a thread sometime back in which I said I had such an article and would let people have a look at it. Please let's not get all up in a huff about it.

I'm with you Martin, no-one is going to cause any trouble or "sue you" over your good deed in disseminating information for education purposes - which is what I was trying to point out - indeed were one to ask him, I daresay Peter would be pleased to reach a wider audience anyway, especially since it was a non-commercial not-for-profit article in the first place !!

Since the subject came up, it was a good opportunity to point out the basics of copyright - and that even where there is technically a breach, it doesn't usually lead to problems......while one should be aware of copyright and its implications, it should not be used for stifling genuine sharing of knowledge or being fearful of sharing knowledge, through not knowing the basics of the subject...... and no-one's getting in a huff !! :wink: :wink:

BTW: I should perhaps mention that I am a solicitor/lawyer both here and in the U.K., and do have good knowledge of the subject, as well as knowing it from a copyrightholder's point of view!! D lol:

[Ironhand]

Can't wait for the article. I enjoyed the inspired test article as well. Very useful. Are we done talking about spear chucking or are we going to talk about the legal complexities of reading about spear chucking?

Paul, and here I thought all Aussies were only smart enough to read beer bottles and chuck rocks. I guess they give good legal advice as well.
oops:

[Paullus Scipio]

Me too!
...and Jef's test article was very good, and brought to light some interesting points...which highlight in practical terms the sort of results physics/mechanics would predict....Really excellent stuff, and I hope Jef and friends follow up with some more tests...range, throwing methods, effects on armour and all that "good stuff" we'd really like to know, and which I'm hoping at least some of is in Peter's article......

.....and I don't just 'chuck rocks'....I chuck pila and other pointy sticks too !!!

And since I can read a beer bottle label ( and tins too! wink: )

Now, big question is, are you comin' to my place, or am I comin' to yours?? 8) 8)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

b], minor breaches of copyright are almost always ignored.
I have very real experience of this.
Many images taken from "Warfare in the Classical World" have been re-used, and/or copied in other publications and are to be found all over the net, the copyright of which belongs to me and Jeff Burn....hundreds, if not thousands of breaches of copyright !
There is, in reality, d**n all we can do about it.....just as Nerva/Martin has pointed out..........

DOHHHHHH, I havn't looked at that book in a while.......suddenly dons on
myopic mor..n, that is your book..... :oops: :oops:

I bought that a while back.......one of my original sources.... D I should have paid more attention

[Nerva]

Gaius

Have you gone all 'medieval' on us? Don't tell be your time machine is working again :lol:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Gaius

Have you gone all 'medieval' on us? Don't tell be your time machine is working again :lol:

No, it's late Roman, from Egypt. :wink:

[Nerva]

Ah ha, you bought that from Peroni? It's a fantastic looking Galea. Do going wearing one of those late period tunica with the big pink and purple spots now :wink:

[Sean Manning]

Oh no, this is not at all what I intended...Look lads, we had a thread sometime back in which I said I had such an article and would let people have a look at it. Please let's not get all up in a huff about it.

Here's what I propose, if you want a copy of the article then email me and I'll send you on a copy, if you don't then just say nothing. This is just about information and education, nothing else.

I just think there's a difference between sending copies of an article to individuals and posting it permanently online (shrug). I've never had a problem with the former, although I'm still working out my code of ethics for things like this.

Re: Copyright law, in North America I don't think you have to prove damages beyond the "they're using something I own without my permission" level. But I'm not any kind of lawyer.

[Matt Lukes]

I vote to get back to javelin chucking It's a very interesting article- the main thing I came away with was that the broad-tanged pilum, which everyone recognizes, actually wasn't used past the BCE-CE transition, unlike the spike-tanged and socketed types, which continued to be used for a long time. The Oberaden artifacts are the best-known flat-tanged pila, but they're not even of the usual pattern, which had bent-out edges to be solid in the pyrimidal block. He says the latest known broad-tanged artifact is from the 69AD level of Xanten I, but is thought to have been deposited long before that date. Spike-tanged shanks, on the other hand, along with socketed ones, are known from sites for quite a long time afterwards. It certainly seems that the spike-tanged type is rather more sturdy a weapon since the pyrimidal block isn't bisected and remained a solid piece.

I was also surprised at his conclusion that the pilum did not ever bend, despite his reconstruction pila being quite heavy. I did some test throwing just recently and more times than not the shank bent a bit and came out of the ground looking just like many artifacts that are bent.

I do, however, fully agree with his sentiment that the idea the pilum was intended to deprive an enemy of his shield is not likely- it was an offensive weapon designed to go through a shield and hit the man carrying it. If it happened to not completely penetrate and thus caused the discarding of the shield, well that was a positive secondary effect.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Either way, the enemy is 'deprived' of his shield

[Tarbicus]

Bending has been discussed before, and I'm pretty sure Connolly points out they seem to have been exceptional instances, one of which being when a pilum had gone through multiple shields, mentioned by Caesar. If it were designed to bend when hitting a shield, it surely would have done so after penetrating just the first one?

[Nerva]

According to Peter Connally, bending of the Pilum shaft was unwanted. Many attempts were made during the development of the Pilum to engineer out this unwanted effect. But things like this will always happen, new research is being done every day and I'm sure much of what we accept of Roman history today will be re-written in time.

There's probably a lot of very good research that's gets rubbished by academics every day. Over time I have formed the opinion that many so called experts back themselves into a corner and refuse to accept new evidence even when it's obvious - I guess it always pays to keep an open mind :wink:

[Marcus Mummius]

Like I mentioned in the other experiment thread. Our pila, made after the dimensions of the Oberaden pilum by Matt almost always bend when they stick into the ground after being thrown. They don't bend often, almost never, when they punch though a shield, they just go through. But even without bending it's VERY difficult to remove them due to the head acting as a very effective barb (the wood closes behind it). If the pilum volley was followed up by a charge of the throwers the receiving party would have had no time to remove them from their shields, even if they were not bend.

Vale,
Jef

[Nerva]

Experiments with our pila have shown varying results.We used 8mm square bright mild steel for the shafts and based the design of the tip on the Oberaden Pilum.

When thrown at the ground there was 'sometimes' a bend of the shaft, almost always at the point the shaft enters the timber head. When thrown at Scuta they also bent but did not always penetrate.

Our Scuta are built from 9mm Marine Plywood. We PX-60 as a sealant and hardening compound. We use 3mm Linen to cover the front of the Scuta only and use 8mm x 33mm battens to re-enforce the back.

We have used plain mild steel for the shafts as well. Invariably they bent at the point where the shaft meets the head and deformed along the shaft.

[Crispvs]

I just thought it might be useful to mention somewhere in this thread that the Connolly article in Exercitus appears to be a revision of the one in JRMES as it is slightly longer and contains a little more information then the JRMES edition.

Crispvs