Linothorax design/construction

[PMBardunias]

Do you think the dots shown on vases especially in Persian linothorakes but not only, could be interpreted this way?

Just a caution about interpreting the dots as rivets. Here you can see the same type of Asiatic armor, but the "dots" are clearly crosses. Dots or other such simple marks might vary by artist- or they may accurately portray rivets and stitching, hard to tell.

[Dan Howard]

All of these frescos show linothoraxes painted for the majority in white and decorated with blues, pinks, reds and other colours. I have not come across a single image painted in antiquity of a linothorax that is brown.

Is there a reason to assume these are dyed linen as opposed to dyed leather?

Is there any evidence anywhere in the ancient world suggesting that leather was ever whitened?

[PMBardunias]

Is there any evidence anywhere in the ancient world suggesting that leather was ever whitened?

Don't know about whitening brown, vegetable tanned leathers (though perhaps arsenic?), but there is no need since you can produce white leather.

Alum tawing was known since at least the bronze age Sumerians and Egyptians. It produces a very stiff white leather. Of course both Parchment and Vellum were white through Lime-curing. Of the true taning techniques, Brain-tanned leather is creamy-white and perhaps the first tanning method used by man.

There are references to white leather boots in Minoan art if I recall, how they would have been tanned I don't know.

[Dan Howard]

Thanks Paul. I wasn't being difficult. I genuinely didn't know.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmm, I thought urine/amonia tanning produced white leather,and would that not have come first?

[Jason Hoffman]

Hi yes it has been a while and the book does slowley drag on, Two small children and am a high school baby sitter (i would never in my wildest dream refer to it as teaching) so the research has gone slow.

The leather / Linen argument always comes back to the point of where did the ancients ever write "leather armour", im am not doubting that itwas used as a backing for scaled armour and as such the many depictions of scaled linothorax armour may indeed be leather. The shoulder peice looking fragment held by the Asmolean museum looks to be such an item.

The ancient greeks wrote about armour made of linen around the same time as all the vase pictures were produced, yes this can never be definative but the odds are pretty stong that the linen armour that they are talking about is what we know today as the linothorax

PS i would attach pictures of the frescos but i cant work the insert image thing out!

[Tarbicus]

PS i would attach pictures of the frescos but i cant work the insert image thing out!

Jason, have you read the FAQ on how to add attachments?
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/faq.php#49

There's a maximum pixel size limit, but if you need them reduced then send me a PM.

[PMBardunias]

Thanks Paul. I wasn't being difficult. I genuinely didn't know.

Thanks Dan, its easy to jump to the other conclusion. Your question has made me look into tanning methods a bit. Alum tawing is ancient- alum or Potash is one of the few chemicals that can be found in a very pure state in nature. It is not true tanning because it will rot in water. The product can be made very hard- perhaps like rawhide, or it can be worked supple. It would be a good candidate for the reason for the boxy shape in the Thorax if it were leather (Personally I don't think there is enough evidence to exclude either type of manufacture).

Judging from your excellent Dendra-esque avatar, I'm guessing you are on other lists where someone would know more about Minoan white boots. I only remember they were supposed to be white because Cretan dancers still wear white leather boots, though its probably coincidence.

[Paullus Scipio]

Jason wrote:-

The ancient greeks wrote about armour made of linen around the same time as all the vase pictures were produced, yes this can never be definative but the odds are pretty stong that the linen armour that they are talking about is what we know today as the linothorax

...without wishing to go over old ground, that statement is rather misleading, especially to newer members, and glosses over the fact that no classical Greek writer refers to Greeks wearing 'linen' armour.

The little evidence in the sources points to the opposite conclusion to the one you are attempting to imply here. evil:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

To all new members:
If you wish to make your own concusions about linen or leather hoplite body armour,you have to read through all those pages from the begining.Otherwise,every statement here may be misleading.

Paul,every time somebody mentions linen armour for the linothorax,you keep "mentioning" your own views on the matter,in order for new members not be mislead.It's like propaganda actually.Though i'm sure you'll say the same for us.
The above message should in a way be put to the end of this thread after every new post.Otherwise no one can put words to a thought without being intentionally or not misleading to new members
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis said:-

Paul,every time somebody mentions linen armour for the linothorax,you keep "mentioning" your own views on the matter,in order for new members not be mislead.It's like propaganda actually.Though i'm sure you'll say the same for us.

...I'm glad that you realise that you 'linophiles' don't have a monopoly on views and opinions, and that I am only replying to 'propaganda' (to use your word)...you notice I never initiate such things.

However, I would agree that when statements such as Jason's are made, members dhould be referred to the appropriate thread(s) so they can see the evidence for themselves.

Wasn't it Goebbels, that master of propaganda who said if you repeat something often enough, people will believe it ? :wink: :wink:

[Sean Manning]

(To all new members: Flee this thread while you still can lest you be reduced to gibbering madness).

About time you responded Jason. I was ready to give up in frustration. Most of this thread can be trashed as soon as you publish your research.

I'm curious what sort of evidence that might be, if Jason doesn't mind telling us. I understand that he's catalogued images and poured over the other sources such as they are, but evidence is scarce. That's why this argument has gone on so long!

I agree with you and Jason that soft armour with this cut was probably mostly quilted linen not glued linen or leather. But I don't think this can be proven without either half a dozen finds (to rule out the very real possiblilty that several materials were used), or half a dozen paintings of it being made from cloth, or a few clear references in 5th or 4th century Greek to Hellenic hoplites wearing it. Even one image of it being made or one find from the right period would be very interesting though.

The information about white cured leather is interesting. Has anyone ever managed to get the shoulders of a leather tube-and-yoke armour to be springy enough, though? I don't recall ever getting an answer to that question.

Edit: I missed reading the last few posts, before postiing this so some of this may already have been answered.

[Tarbicus]

I understand that he's catalogued images and poured over the other sources such as they are, but evidence is scarce.

That just pre-judges Jason's research, without waiting for his work to be finished or published. Everyone's being impatient.

[Paullus Scipio]

Sean said:-

(To all new members: Flee this thread while you still can lest you be reduced to gibbering madness).

.... :lol: :lol: :lol: ....well said, Sean, but you needn't worry, I'm not 'biting' any further

But I don't think this can be proven without either half a dozen finds (to rule out the very real possiblilty that several materials were used), or half a dozen paintings of it being made from cloth, or a few clear references in 5th or 4th century Greek to Hellenic hoplites wearing it. Even one image of it being made or one find from the right period would be very interesting though.

...you probably think the likelihood of that happening is very small, but oddly enough, the possibility you refer to has opened up, with the excavation of significant numbers of Macedonian 'Hoplite' graves, though it's too early to draw any conclusions yet without further evidence beyond newspaper reports. If the reports are correct, then the hoplites body armour consisted of leather corselets, decorated with gold applique. Given the climate not being conducive to the preservation of organic matter, I would anticipate that what is being talked about will be fragments stuck to the gold, but one can always hope for more.......

see the 'Macedonian Leather Body Armour thread'

[Paullus Scipio]

Tarbicus said:-

Quote:
I understand that he's catalogued images and poured over the other sources such as they are, but evidence is scarce.

That just pre-judges Jason's research, without waiting for his work to be finished or published. Everyone's being impatient.

...so have many other people,from Snodgrass onward, and many have studied the subject far longer than Jason has too. It is highly unlikely that Jason has found anything that all those others, many of them eminent scholars, 'missed'.