The Boiotian Shield

[Paullus Scipio]

Nikolaos/Cole wrote:

As Boardman believes the Boeotian is a real shield trying to use him in an argument against it is pretty weak.

...I don't believe this is correct, and I notice you don't cite your source for this.
AFIK, Boardman has this to say on the subject: ( 'The History of Greek vases'; Thames and Hudson, 2001 p.192)
"...reflect the figure-of-eight shields of the bronze age and indicate a heroic occasion, but they are just highly stylised renderings of the usual shields of hide stretched over a frame, which by around 700 BC were generally displaced by round shields.These will serve the new new styles of Hoplite fighting in Greece, and are seen defeating the old shield types on several Geometric vases." Incidently, here is another source of artistic continuity, and yet another is bronze belt plaques and shield bands decorated with depictions of this 'archaic' shield.
He goes on to add in a footnote: "The later 'Boeotian' shield with small cutouts and like a Hoplite shield, but worn with a baldric, MAY be a parade shield and often shown for heroes, and also on Boeotian coins"
He also cites with approval Prof T.H. Carpenter 'Art and Myth in Ancient Greece' (Thames and Hudson 1991), who has this to say on the subject p.199:"The inclusion of 'Boeotian' shields on Attic vases often hints at an heroic meaning since such shields never actually existed, but are reminiscent of the Mycenaean figure-of-eight shields."

So its a pretty big stretch to claim that warrior subject matter is exclusively gods and heroes.

...yet that is the view of our foremost experts on the subject ! - see my earlier post quoting Boardman's view that historical scenes arrived after Marathon. ( save perhaps for some arming and departure scenes)

Clearly Boardman does NOT believe they were in use by real Hoplites/Warriors, even in the period 650-550 BC, let alone later.

....Are gods/heroes, but its just an assertion, there is nothing to back it up.

...except the opinions of the best experts - see my post above ! :wink:

In these examples, none are named as heroes, there are no gods depicted, and the scenes are generic, not specific.

...generic scenes can almost always be identified/tied to a particular myth, even where characters are not named, because the composition will be identical/similar to a named one, or the Myth will be an obvious one....so much so that scenes can nbe added to Mythology. The frequently depicted Ajax and Achilles board-game scene is not referred to in the extant versions of the "Iliad", for example.

Also, cavalry and horse archers aren't big legendary/mythical figures in Greece:

...a broad assertion ! Amazonomachies with mounted women in scythian dress, Thessalian Heroes, Herakles and the Horses of Diomedes are among the most popular themes.....

Which, really, is sufficient for me to say the Boeotian may have existed, all the rest of my points merely serve to show this is not an unreasonable position to take.

Similarly, you could be right. But then you could be wrong. But you have to be reasonable and admit that there is that possibility. Certainty has no place among amateurs.

...certainly, and I said this from my first post on this thread.....but 'possible' is not 'probable', and like I said, the overall weight of evidence is against the idea of 'Boeotian' shields in use c.500 BC.
I would not count myself an 'amateur' save in the sense that we all are.
Certainty has no place among 'professionals' either..... D