04-15-2009, 01:32 AM
Paul B:
Sorry if there was some confusion there on the topic of chariots. I believe that they existed (as they raced them in the Olympic games) but not that they are used on the battlefield
My argument on the point is that the vase art in the period in question depicts the chariot in both heroic (battlefield use) and contemporary (racing) manners. As such, it serves as a corollary to the argument, as depictions of warriors with boeotians which are not "heroic" may represent contemporary usage.
Paul MS:
As Boardman believes the Boeotian is a real shield trying to use him in an argument against it is pretty weak.
You also write:
"To take but one example, the subject matter of Athenian Red Figure Ware changes rapidly following the Persian Wars and Marathon, as I have noted several times here on RAT. Whereas previously, warrior depictions had been exclusively of Gods and Heroes - mythological subjects, and hence depicted with known 'archaic' weapons, such as Boeotian shields; after Marathon, for the first time, Contemporary 'Heroes' are seen as fit to depict"
While I've heard this argument elsewhere, and it doesn't hold much water no matter how many times its repeated. You can claim that red figure warrior figures before 500 like:
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/xdb/ASP/rec ... unt=76&id= {C675523A-DEA0-4B81-BFA7-116D96B39142}&fileName=IMAGES200%2FUSA35%2FCVA%2EUSA35%2E1822%2E1%2F&returnPage=&start=0
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/xdb/ASP/rec ... unt=78&id= {FC8B25A9-D4CE-4BDB-8F79-8FDF597FCCF9}&returnPage=&start=0
Are gods/heroes, but its just an assertion, there is nothing to back it up. In these examples, none are named as heroes, there are no gods depicted, and the scenes are generic, not specific.
Also, cavalry and horse archers aren't big legendary/mythical figures in Greece:
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/xdb/ASP/rec ... unt=78&id= {FC8B25A9-D4CE-4BDB-8F79-8FDF597FCCF9}&fileName=IMAGES100%2F200%2F200029%2EI%2F&returnPage=&start=0
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/xdb/ASP/rec ... unt=18&id= {14C95B25-2CA0-4D0A-B9A9-3485A6DA50AB}&fileName=IMAGES100%2F200%2F20080%2EI%2F&returnPage=&start=0
They're reality. So its a pretty big stretch to claim that warrior subject matter is exclusively gods and heroes.
And while I agree that there is no archaeological evidence that we know of, your arguments on the iconography are weak, particulary as Boardman disagrees with you.
Which, really, is sufficient for me to say the Boeotian may have existed, all the rest of my points merely serve to show this is not an unreasonable position to take.
Similarly, you could be right. But then you could be wrong. But you have to be reasonable and admit that there is that possibility. Certainty has no place among amateurs.
Have fun,
Cole
Sorry if there was some confusion there on the topic of chariots. I believe that they existed (as they raced them in the Olympic games) but not that they are used on the battlefield
My argument on the point is that the vase art in the period in question depicts the chariot in both heroic (battlefield use) and contemporary (racing) manners. As such, it serves as a corollary to the argument, as depictions of warriors with boeotians which are not "heroic" may represent contemporary usage.
Paul MS:
As Boardman believes the Boeotian is a real shield trying to use him in an argument against it is pretty weak.
You also write:
"To take but one example, the subject matter of Athenian Red Figure Ware changes rapidly following the Persian Wars and Marathon, as I have noted several times here on RAT. Whereas previously, warrior depictions had been exclusively of Gods and Heroes - mythological subjects, and hence depicted with known 'archaic' weapons, such as Boeotian shields; after Marathon, for the first time, Contemporary 'Heroes' are seen as fit to depict"
While I've heard this argument elsewhere, and it doesn't hold much water no matter how many times its repeated. You can claim that red figure warrior figures before 500 like:
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/xdb/ASP/rec ... unt=76&id= {C675523A-DEA0-4B81-BFA7-116D96B39142}&fileName=IMAGES200%2FUSA35%2FCVA%2EUSA35%2E1822%2E1%2F&returnPage=&start=0
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/xdb/ASP/rec ... unt=78&id= {FC8B25A9-D4CE-4BDB-8F79-8FDF597FCCF9}&returnPage=&start=0
Are gods/heroes, but its just an assertion, there is nothing to back it up. In these examples, none are named as heroes, there are no gods depicted, and the scenes are generic, not specific.
Also, cavalry and horse archers aren't big legendary/mythical figures in Greece:
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/xdb/ASP/rec ... unt=78&id= {FC8B25A9-D4CE-4BDB-8F79-8FDF597FCCF9}&fileName=IMAGES100%2F200%2F200029%2EI%2F&returnPage=&start=0
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/xdb/ASP/rec ... unt=18&id= {14C95B25-2CA0-4D0A-B9A9-3485A6DA50AB}&fileName=IMAGES100%2F200%2F20080%2EI%2F&returnPage=&start=0
They're reality. So its a pretty big stretch to claim that warrior subject matter is exclusively gods and heroes.
And while I agree that there is no archaeological evidence that we know of, your arguments on the iconography are weak, particulary as Boardman disagrees with you.
Which, really, is sufficient for me to say the Boeotian may have existed, all the rest of my points merely serve to show this is not an unreasonable position to take.
Similarly, you could be right. But then you could be wrong. But you have to be reasonable and admit that there is that possibility. Certainty has no place among amateurs.
Have fun,
Cole
Cole
