Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Late Roman Army - seniores and iuniores
#14
Robert,

I agree with you and Hoffmann that in 364 there was an army partition. But how it was parted still stands open to question. Afterwards in the Notitia, some 30-50 years later, we indeed find most seniores in the west, iuniores in the east. That COULD be coincidence, but I agree its wise to search for an explanation.
  • 1. problem:
    what does iuniores-seniores mean? you already mentioned that question is still unsolved.
    2. problem:
    seniores-iuniores appear before 364, outside of the notitia we have very few datable unit-designations even after that date - so why suppose that all (Hoffmann) or most of seniores-iuniores should be created in that date? Why couldn't it be the usual practice to designate newly created units out of older cadres, happening all the time or in moments of army rebuilding?
    3. It could be possible that in 364 ALREADY EXISTING seniores-iuniores (and maybe newly created) were parted in the way that former went with Valentinian, last with Valens.
    4. As far as I know (please proof me wrong), I haven't found a thorough explanation for the sheer unbelievable unit-augmentation during 4/5th century. Hoffmann, Scharf and Speidel speak of one wave of unit creation after the other. But did that mean the army growing in numbers? or the units getting smaller and smaller. Or were there far more units disbanded/destroyed than we know? Jones makes a good point for the last.


To suppose some other moments, where seniores-iuniores could be created:
in 377 Gratian wanted to help his uncle Valens against the Goths. First he sent Frigeridus with Pannonian and Transalpine troops, who was
Quote:"followed by Richomer, commander of the household troops, who ..., moved from Gaul and hurried towards Thrace. The regiments that he brought with him were regiments only in name; most of their number had deserted at the instance, it was alleged, of Merobaudes"
(Ammianus 31.7)

What should we make out of this? There WERE units sent in the east, if "only in name". What do you think happened with them? Would they return to their parent units? But the next years we only hear of new reinforcements for the east. Would they be integrated into other eastern units? Or - maybe could they be filled up and become iuniores?

Other dates for seniores-iuniores creation could be the troops of the third emperor, the "Mittelreich". From 367 (elevation of Gratian) to 388 (death of Maximus) there were always 3 emperors. When Valentinian died 375 his second son Valentinian II. was elevated.
J. Barlow and P. Brennan in: Tribuni scholarum palatinum 353-64: Ammianus Marcellinus and the Notitia Dignitatum (Classical Quarterly 51.1, 2001) think at least for the scholae that some partition could be possible for the Mittelreich (p.240. They also see Hoffmanns thesis critical, p.239).


To draw a conclusion:
Hoffmann did the greatest effort to bring order in the confused late roman army organization and unit history. But he unfortunately did it on some wrong assumptions (he didn't know the definite existence of seniores before 364).
For any army composition therefore I would first start with only what less the sources tell, THEN still look what Hoffmann wrote, and then try to check that with Scharf, Speidel et. al.

But I have to repeat my big wish: We need a listing of all sources for late roman units. But I guess only that would need another Hoffmann-style project, for that man worked dozens of years for his book :!:

For some units (eg. Batavi-Heruli-Regii, Cornuti, Petulantes) I started to do so on my own, and I came to some interesting and some quite different assumptions about unit-origin or -history than otherwise proposed.
Jens Wucherpfennig
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Re: Late Roman Army - seniores and iuniores - by Natuspardo - 02-18-2007, 11:04 AM

Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Late Roman Army during the 5th century Robert Vermaat 89 17,329 01-11-2024, 04:34 PM
Last Post: Magister_Officiorum13241
  Late Roman Army Ranks - Numeri/Limitanei jmsilvacross 14 1,745 11-17-2021, 01:42 PM
Last Post: Steven James
  Seniores and Iuniores (again) Colonel Chabert 23 3,433 01-09-2021, 12:42 AM
Last Post: Nathan Ross

Forum Jump: