Rome vs Japan

[P. Lilius Frugius Simius]

Dr. Draeger was, probably, the creator of Hoplology as a Science.

(N.B. please understand ^ as macrons over vowels... that or doubling vowels, as I'm not firing the Unicode tool this late xD )

While I cannot fully agree with his distinction between Budô and Bujutsu, he may have a point (until, that is, you find koryû with both jûjutsu and jûdô, for example, and they are the same xD

As for the samurai, they were (Sengoku Jidai) fearsome, true. But a battle is not only a matter of individual prowess, and the Japanese were not precisely brilliant in tactical and strategical terms, beng the frontal asault of massed troops the usual thing... That said, give me an inspired Roman general and some veteran legions over any number of fantastic troops any day...

Marius? Sulla? Caesar? Constantine? Julian? Aetius? Any day!

Personal ability is important in one-on-one situations, but Ruyhâ training is very different from military drill, and the most important element of Human battle was and always will be troops morale.

Roman uirtus (not like the artificial, Tokugawa/Meiji-propaganded Bushidô; but not unlike the old, true Bunbu no ichi), as Travis mentioned before in this thread, imposed strict bounds to the legionnaires (specially officer and NCOs, and we know Centurios are the bosses!) and discipline imposed an insurmountable dose of morale... If their legatus had charisma, the enemies were condemned, no matter how many or how fierce... and History proves that.

Now, some Japanese armies (probably/surely led by the Big Guys of the XV-XVI, Taiko Hideyoshi, and later Nobunaga or Shôgun Tokugawa) were as fearsome... I want 'em!

It's just that martial arts, per se are not as important in war as Hollywood may lead us to believe... Why would some samurai bujutsu training be significant for a massed ashigaru army, specially the peasant-levied-type of ashigaru that appeared later in History? Romans and Greeks had martial arts as well (even the word we use for the term, and the translation of "Bujutsu" is Latin and the Roman War God!) and I don't think they were as inneffective when compared to the Japanese... Same go for the Indians, Persians, Libyans, Egyptians, Chinese and others that met Rome or its neighbors...

Lastly, while yumi were terrible, I don't think they were that different from the symmetrical Persian or Partian or Alan bows, or the assymetrical Hunnic bows... Taking time into account, the only Romans vs Japanese realities would be Late Byzantine Armies vs Early Heian Troops, which were massed cavalry archers... Romans were used to the Parthians using that tactics for a milennia, and the Turks had pretty powerful asymmetrical and symmetrical bows themselves (after all they managed to make a huge empire after the Mongols, which were feasome themselves, Chingis Khan? Oops!)... Romans were used to deal with bows, anyway, from times immemorial in their History, and they would deal with massed yumi as well... more power, more distance... yeah, sure, but Greeks found a solution at Marathon, Romans would have found another solution later on... :-) )

Romans were not invincible (obviously) but they were pretty tough guys themselves, no need to overpower the eastern martial abilities, Hollywood's done lots of damage... fire weapons have done so as well to western martial arts, I'd bet a good Spanish rapier fencer (destreça de las armas) or a good English quarterstaff fighter on any Menkyô Kaiden of yore or today to be, at least, they fair equals in combat...

And, Musashi was a great swordsman and poet, but Francisco Quevedo was even greater, surely in the bun part, and I'd fear him on the Bu part (even fencing masters feared and hated him, he once got the hat from one of the greatest masters's (Luis Pacheco de Narváez) head with the tip of his sword during a demonstration before Duke of Medina-Sidonia, the martial arts patron of the time... VERY embarrasing! Quevedo was in prison for a while the day after the dinner, LOL! URI with data on this and more:http://www.biography.com/search/article.do?id=9431419 )

BTW, the documented fights between samurai and spanish/portugese fencers were usually mutual killings... so far, so good

anyway... interesting/fun discussion... :-) )
laters!