02-12-2013, 06:18 AM
This thread is to continue the discussion which was unfortunately cut off from the 'Show here your Roman soldier impression' thread when the posts on baldrics and belts were split off.
As a courtesy note to possible participants, if you plan to quote parts of this or succeeding posts, please only quote the portion you are referring to rather than the whole post. We will already have read that and do not need to read it again.
On 10th February 2013 Crispvs wrote:
"My only other area of criticism would be the trousers. If you are doing an impression of a soldier of the Dacian Wars or later, trousers are fine, as there is evidence for their use by citizen solders from one of the Adamklissi metopes, dating to Trajan's Dacian campaigns in the early second century AD. Evidence for their use before this is entirely lacking though and as your overall impression looks more like the mid-1st century AD (judging by your belt) I would avoid them on the basis that although they were certainly in use by some soldiers fifty or so years later, we do not know how long before that they entered service and so it is possible that trousers (of any type) may be utterly wrong for a soldier of your period. A lot can change in fifty or sixty years after all.
Crispvs"
On 10th February 2013 Jori wrote:
"I'm a legionary from the Flavian period, from the LEG VIII, based at Argentorate (Strasbourg). Here, in winter, it's cold. Many of our ancestors are gauls, used to wear braccae. Feminalia were common at this place and period, but not depicted on official sculptures, that's right.
We have tested everything we wear. For instance, a real marching, during one complete week, 20 kms per day. Everything works. We tested leather feminalia, linen feminalia and wool. Wool is ok for winter and rain, linen is ok for sunny days, and leather is ok for centurios
..."
On 10th February 2013 Crispvs wrote:
"I hear what you're saying but remember that the ancients did not think about things in the same way we do today. The typical Roman solution to cold was to wear several woollen tunics at once, along with a cloak. We also know they wore socks and lower leg coverings. We still have no evidence that they used trousers, either femenalia or bracchae, at any time before the Dacian Wars several decades later. Arguing for something on the basis of no evidence does not provide proof unfortunately. Remember that 'locals' only got to join legions at that period if they came from families of Roman citizens who lived locally. What the local tribesmen wore may have been less of a consideration for them than the status that citizenship provided, which appears often to have been emphasised in terms of dressing obviously as a citizen.
You're right of course that they work to help keep you warm enough. After all, they would be strange trousers indeed if they did not do that. However, the fact that they work does not prove that they were actually used. I hear what you say about testing in the field but I should probably make mention here of the fact that in the past I have spent more than a week at a time in mountains, above the snowline and sometimes in snow four feet deep, wearing several layers on my upper body, a hat, several pairs of socks (and boots of course) and shorts. I have never come down with hypothermia brought on by bare knees, although I have seen other people suffer from hypothermia when they did not wear a hat or sufficient layers over their upper bodies. I have never found the knees to be areas which suffered over much from cold, something seemingly shared by tens of thousands of Scottish soldiers over the past two and a half centuries who have marched to war, lived in trenches and fought in kilts.
So, to dress like a Roman of the Falvian period when it is cold, wear two or more woollen tunics, a cloak which can be drawn up over the head, socks and lower leg coverings. You will be surprised at just how warm this can be. Again, I have been doing this for several years and can state with confidence that this level of insulation works with reconstructed Roman cold weather kit just as well as it does with more modern mountaineering gear worn in snow for prolonged periods.
Crispvs"
On 10th February 2013 Jori wrote:
"It is true that we lack of evidence, almost for everything, but that's the fun in roman army reenactment
We still have a lot to discover.
The feminalia is one of those cases. Augustus and Nero used them. Common people also. But is was considered like a "working dress". Like modern tracksuits. Nothing to be shown in a stele, where the deceased should be represented in is best clothes.
Archeology can not help us, since it is almost impossible to find textile well preserved in northern provinces.
Why do I used feminalia, if we have no evidence of it? I thought about it, and I reached this conclusion : because the soldiers of Trajan Dacian Wars were for many the same during Domitian Dacian Wars. Only 13 years separated the end of Domitian's war from Trajan. Fashion is something incredible, but if we saw old legionaries depicted with feminalia on Trajan's column, could it be some kind of evidence for feminalia some years before? 13 years, it's for us the year 2000. Did the fashion changed this much since then? Did romans discovered all of a sudden that feminalia were much more practical than layers of tunicae.
Romans where proud, but they always took the best of conquered people. Feminalia are an improvement of military gear. Since it's barbarian, it would not be depicted on steles until Trajan. That's my conclusions.
I will use greaves, by the way, so the lower part of my legs protection are a necessity (I don't know how it is called in english, we say in french "bande molletiere")."
As a courtesy note to possible participants, if you plan to quote parts of this or succeeding posts, please only quote the portion you are referring to rather than the whole post. We will already have read that and do not need to read it again.
On 10th February 2013 Crispvs wrote:
"My only other area of criticism would be the trousers. If you are doing an impression of a soldier of the Dacian Wars or later, trousers are fine, as there is evidence for their use by citizen solders from one of the Adamklissi metopes, dating to Trajan's Dacian campaigns in the early second century AD. Evidence for their use before this is entirely lacking though and as your overall impression looks more like the mid-1st century AD (judging by your belt) I would avoid them on the basis that although they were certainly in use by some soldiers fifty or so years later, we do not know how long before that they entered service and so it is possible that trousers (of any type) may be utterly wrong for a soldier of your period. A lot can change in fifty or sixty years after all.
Crispvs"
On 10th February 2013 Jori wrote:
"I'm a legionary from the Flavian period, from the LEG VIII, based at Argentorate (Strasbourg). Here, in winter, it's cold. Many of our ancestors are gauls, used to wear braccae. Feminalia were common at this place and period, but not depicted on official sculptures, that's right.
We have tested everything we wear. For instance, a real marching, during one complete week, 20 kms per day. Everything works. We tested leather feminalia, linen feminalia and wool. Wool is ok for winter and rain, linen is ok for sunny days, and leather is ok for centurios
..."On 10th February 2013 Crispvs wrote:
"I hear what you're saying but remember that the ancients did not think about things in the same way we do today. The typical Roman solution to cold was to wear several woollen tunics at once, along with a cloak. We also know they wore socks and lower leg coverings. We still have no evidence that they used trousers, either femenalia or bracchae, at any time before the Dacian Wars several decades later. Arguing for something on the basis of no evidence does not provide proof unfortunately. Remember that 'locals' only got to join legions at that period if they came from families of Roman citizens who lived locally. What the local tribesmen wore may have been less of a consideration for them than the status that citizenship provided, which appears often to have been emphasised in terms of dressing obviously as a citizen.
You're right of course that they work to help keep you warm enough. After all, they would be strange trousers indeed if they did not do that. However, the fact that they work does not prove that they were actually used. I hear what you say about testing in the field but I should probably make mention here of the fact that in the past I have spent more than a week at a time in mountains, above the snowline and sometimes in snow four feet deep, wearing several layers on my upper body, a hat, several pairs of socks (and boots of course) and shorts. I have never come down with hypothermia brought on by bare knees, although I have seen other people suffer from hypothermia when they did not wear a hat or sufficient layers over their upper bodies. I have never found the knees to be areas which suffered over much from cold, something seemingly shared by tens of thousands of Scottish soldiers over the past two and a half centuries who have marched to war, lived in trenches and fought in kilts.
So, to dress like a Roman of the Falvian period when it is cold, wear two or more woollen tunics, a cloak which can be drawn up over the head, socks and lower leg coverings. You will be surprised at just how warm this can be. Again, I have been doing this for several years and can state with confidence that this level of insulation works with reconstructed Roman cold weather kit just as well as it does with more modern mountaineering gear worn in snow for prolonged periods.
Crispvs"
On 10th February 2013 Jori wrote:
"It is true that we lack of evidence, almost for everything, but that's the fun in roman army reenactment
We still have a lot to discover.The feminalia is one of those cases. Augustus and Nero used them. Common people also. But is was considered like a "working dress". Like modern tracksuits. Nothing to be shown in a stele, where the deceased should be represented in is best clothes.
Archeology can not help us, since it is almost impossible to find textile well preserved in northern provinces.
Why do I used feminalia, if we have no evidence of it? I thought about it, and I reached this conclusion : because the soldiers of Trajan Dacian Wars were for many the same during Domitian Dacian Wars. Only 13 years separated the end of Domitian's war from Trajan. Fashion is something incredible, but if we saw old legionaries depicted with feminalia on Trajan's column, could it be some kind of evidence for feminalia some years before? 13 years, it's for us the year 2000. Did the fashion changed this much since then? Did romans discovered all of a sudden that feminalia were much more practical than layers of tunicae.
Romans where proud, but they always took the best of conquered people. Feminalia are an improvement of military gear. Since it's barbarian, it would not be depicted on steles until Trajan. That's my conclusions.
I will use greaves, by the way, so the lower part of my legs protection are a necessity (I don't know how it is called in english, we say in french "bande molletiere")."
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
