When did the Roman Empire fall (your thoughts)?

[Alanus]

Why does everything begin with Constantine? Why doesn't it begin with Decius, his unprecedented persecution of Christianity, and his unprecedented defeat and death at the hands of the Goths along with his son and co-emperor?

People tend to forget that the Goths slayed three Roman emperors in battle. And it happened in the same general area. See the Battle of Abritus.

Back to you, Theo

My point centers on Roman complacency, the rise of the Church and exorcism of Paganism, and a gradual take-over by the Goths (and Vandals, Heruli, etc.) in key military positions, to the point that Romans were a 1% minority on the battlefield. We have first-born sons cutting off their thumbs to avoid service, second-born sons becoming monks, and sisters (Placidia-types) who willingly marry Athaulfs because the good boys can't get it up, perhaps because they ate too much MSG in their garum or drank too much lead-infused water. The Romans, by the time of Constantine, were something staight out of a John Carpenter movie-- "The Living Dead."

We have the Council of Nicea, a recognition of the Church as the ONE and ONLY official religion, even irking the Goths and Vandals all the more for sticking with an Arianism now outlawed into the Hinterlands yet flourishing. Fact is, Constantine was a poor excuse for a human and even less a Churchman, and Theodosius was called "The Great" due to his Church-licking, for he certainly wasn't much of a general, even getting canned and sent back home with his tail between legs. He spawns a near-idiot, and then a complete idiot, and a daughter who coddles up to Attila the Hun, while Placidia chooses a virile "straight shooter" from the Wrong Side of the tracks. It's the Peter's Principle-- and if things could go wrong, they certainly did. :whistle:

Frankly, I think the Romans deserved what they got; and the real heros of their day were Stilicho, Fritigern, Alaric, and Athaulf. They were square shooters, intelligent, and reasonably honest in their dealings.

Glad you brought up Decius, though. There was a wrikled hard case, stepped on hard by Cniva and probably a Taifali cavalry. How fitting he died in a swamp.