08-16-2003, 10:30 PM
<<As for period of relative peace - well, time percentage you're absolutely right, but when they were fighting (Dacian Wars come to mind) - Gods below, they really went at it.>><br>
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Sure, but for a very limited time, campaign season being a few months per year. Also, any one campaign involved only a fraction of the entire Roman army-- in Britain, sections of four legions out of nearly thirty stationed throughout the empire; in Dacia, vexillations of perhaps five or six legions. And any kind of sustained combat was definitely the exception, and the rare exception at that, not the norm.<br>
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<<And then segmental armors really held up. They were practical and very protective, and I don't know of any accounts of them falling apart constantly...>><br>
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Actually, there is just such a report. One of the Plinys (I forget which one) notes in one of his letters that a general posted to one of the frontiers found the armor of his legionaries in such disprepair that he was "able to pull the cuirasses apart with his fingers" (this little tidbit from Mike Bishop's "Lorica Segmentata" book). Of course we don't know exactly what type of cuirasses he was referring to, but I'll bet you a bag of denarii they were Corbridge lorica segs. Several of the actual Corbridge cuirasses had broken hinges and had been "field repaired" by simply adjacent riveting plates together. The very reason we know so much about the lorica seg is that pieces kept falling off the damned thing and getting lost all overt the place. Anyone who has spent some time rummaging through metal detector finds has encountered parts of lobate hinges, strap buckles, and tie loops. Anyone who has worn a lorica for long periods, even for reenactment use, which is very "light duty" by ancient standards, knowns that the average Corbridge lorica is actually very fragile. Straps and leathers are constantly snapping, hinge pins are constantly popping, hinges constantly breaking, tie loops constantly bending and cracking, etc., requiring nearly constant after-event maintenance. They are very fussy pieces of gear, much more so than a mail shirt.<br>
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<<A more probable cause for these armors to go out of service is the fact that more and more the Roman army... wasn't. The incorporation of more and more local fighters, and their use of native armors and equipment, changed the fundamental tactics of the Roman army. Also, the extent of the Empire, and it's ruinous economic policies (nearly 40-50% of GDP goint to things such as the Ludi Gladiatori) made prohibitive the use of armors that pretty much had to be made to fit the user. Mail could be used by several men of different sizes - yet you try wearing my seg more than ten minutes and see if it doesn't give you a few bites . Towards the end of the period, Dux Limitanei were pressing anybody they could get as recruits - and it got worse as time progressed. If I remeber well, there was even a proscritpion against self-mutilation (ca 300-400 AD) because it was a preferred method of avoiding service!>><br>
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Yes, but the lorica seg falls out of use very quickly, and in a very defined period-- AD 225-250. It's true that there had been a slow evolution away from the legionary heavy infantryman, and toward the more flexibly equipped auxiliary soldier for some time, but by the mid 220s, the auxiliaries were every bit as "Roman" as the legions, having been made so by Caracalla's decree, and they'd been equipped in Roman fashion for a couple hundred years. "Native armors" among the auxiliaries were few and far between; even the Germans were using Roman gear. The fact is, the pace of warfare picks up sharply after AD 225, with the Empuire coming under pressure simultaneously on all major fronts. Incursions by barbarians and major offensives by the Persians start occupying not just one or two campaign seasons, but entire decades. The legions broke up into much smaller vexillations, and were marched around constantly to patch this or that breach in the frontier, or to engage raiders and war bands, or to take on other Roman armies supporting rival emperors. Between 30 BC and AD 235, warfare was the exception; from AD 235 to 300, it was the rule. It's not surprising that the Roman soldier who emerges from the Great Anarchy looks a lot different than the one who goes into it. His gear is no less distinctive, no less "Roman," but it's distinctive in a different way. And fairly early in the transformation, the lorica segmentata is ditched and replaced by simpler, easier-to-maintain forms of body armor, primarily mail and scale.<br>
<br>
By the way, a write-up on how Dio made his Newstead cuirass can be found here:<br>
<br>
www.legionsix.org/Newstead%20article.htm<br>
<br>
Honos et virtus,<br>
<br>
T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
<br>
Sure, but for a very limited time, campaign season being a few months per year. Also, any one campaign involved only a fraction of the entire Roman army-- in Britain, sections of four legions out of nearly thirty stationed throughout the empire; in Dacia, vexillations of perhaps five or six legions. And any kind of sustained combat was definitely the exception, and the rare exception at that, not the norm.<br>
<br>
<<And then segmental armors really held up. They were practical and very protective, and I don't know of any accounts of them falling apart constantly...>><br>
<br>
Actually, there is just such a report. One of the Plinys (I forget which one) notes in one of his letters that a general posted to one of the frontiers found the armor of his legionaries in such disprepair that he was "able to pull the cuirasses apart with his fingers" (this little tidbit from Mike Bishop's "Lorica Segmentata" book). Of course we don't know exactly what type of cuirasses he was referring to, but I'll bet you a bag of denarii they were Corbridge lorica segs. Several of the actual Corbridge cuirasses had broken hinges and had been "field repaired" by simply adjacent riveting plates together. The very reason we know so much about the lorica seg is that pieces kept falling off the damned thing and getting lost all overt the place. Anyone who has spent some time rummaging through metal detector finds has encountered parts of lobate hinges, strap buckles, and tie loops. Anyone who has worn a lorica for long periods, even for reenactment use, which is very "light duty" by ancient standards, knowns that the average Corbridge lorica is actually very fragile. Straps and leathers are constantly snapping, hinge pins are constantly popping, hinges constantly breaking, tie loops constantly bending and cracking, etc., requiring nearly constant after-event maintenance. They are very fussy pieces of gear, much more so than a mail shirt.<br>
<br>
<<A more probable cause for these armors to go out of service is the fact that more and more the Roman army... wasn't. The incorporation of more and more local fighters, and their use of native armors and equipment, changed the fundamental tactics of the Roman army. Also, the extent of the Empire, and it's ruinous economic policies (nearly 40-50% of GDP goint to things such as the Ludi Gladiatori) made prohibitive the use of armors that pretty much had to be made to fit the user. Mail could be used by several men of different sizes - yet you try wearing my seg more than ten minutes and see if it doesn't give you a few bites . Towards the end of the period, Dux Limitanei were pressing anybody they could get as recruits - and it got worse as time progressed. If I remeber well, there was even a proscritpion against self-mutilation (ca 300-400 AD) because it was a preferred method of avoiding service!>><br>
<br>
Yes, but the lorica seg falls out of use very quickly, and in a very defined period-- AD 225-250. It's true that there had been a slow evolution away from the legionary heavy infantryman, and toward the more flexibly equipped auxiliary soldier for some time, but by the mid 220s, the auxiliaries were every bit as "Roman" as the legions, having been made so by Caracalla's decree, and they'd been equipped in Roman fashion for a couple hundred years. "Native armors" among the auxiliaries were few and far between; even the Germans were using Roman gear. The fact is, the pace of warfare picks up sharply after AD 225, with the Empuire coming under pressure simultaneously on all major fronts. Incursions by barbarians and major offensives by the Persians start occupying not just one or two campaign seasons, but entire decades. The legions broke up into much smaller vexillations, and were marched around constantly to patch this or that breach in the frontier, or to engage raiders and war bands, or to take on other Roman armies supporting rival emperors. Between 30 BC and AD 235, warfare was the exception; from AD 235 to 300, it was the rule. It's not surprising that the Roman soldier who emerges from the Great Anarchy looks a lot different than the one who goes into it. His gear is no less distinctive, no less "Roman," but it's distinctive in a different way. And fairly early in the transformation, the lorica segmentata is ditched and replaced by simpler, easier-to-maintain forms of body armor, primarily mail and scale.<br>
<br>
By the way, a write-up on how Dio made his Newstead cuirass can be found here:<br>
<br>
www.legionsix.org/Newstead%20article.htm<br>
<br>
Honos et virtus,<br>
<br>
T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA
"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA
"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
