10-26-2013, 09:14 AM
Renatus wrote:
I have thought about this in relation to Vegetius’ inclusion of both a centurio primi pili (i.e., primus pilus) and a triarius prior in his First Cohort.
Thanks Renatus for reminding me of this source. Now I have a legitimate reason to call the triarii ‘prior.’ Livy (44 33) has the primus pilus present at the council of war, then after the pilus centurion notified what was to be done to each of the centurions under his command. Now if the primus pilus was then required to command the triarii or any other unit, how could he be sure the other centurions are following the plan? The primus pilus has to be independent and mounted so he can move around and supervise the other 60 centurions under his command.
Contrary to the traditional thinking, the triarii have no centurions of their own. The triarii are under the command of the centurions belonging to the principes. The triarii are not really expected to be used in battle, but when they are, after the principes fall back, the centurions of the principes take command of the triarii. This arrangement is very predominant in the organisation of the Servian legion, that is the centurion will fall back with the tired men, then pick up the fresh men under his command and advance towards the enemy.
Whether you like it or not, the legion is a voting body. Both Dionysius and Livy make this clear in their outline of the century assembly. In the century assembly there are no posterior centuries, there are all prior. However, there is the centuria praerogativa. This century votes first and if you see a connection between the first centurion, don’t rule it out as a coincidence until you are prepared to thoroughly investigate it.
The description of the century assembly as given by Cicero has convinced many scholars of a major reform of the century assembly. They are right, and this change to the century assembly had its biggest impact on the property class the triarii belong to. There total numbers got reduced. In its military application, to compensate for this loss, the Romans incorporated Class IV into the legions official organisation. Overtime, Class V and Class VI will be officially incorporated into the legion’s organisation. This is how they keep the legion numbers constant every time the century assembly is forced by the plebs to be a more democratic assembly. Of course they are going to run out of classes to incorporate into the legion, but by then the legion will be a constant.
Before this happens, in the early republican legion, there are no posterior centuries. When it came to voting or assembling for a campaign, the army did this on the Campus Martius, so the Roman knew how much space they needed to assembly the army. It took me awhile, but in my research I have only just noticed that the depth of the legion from Servius Tullius to Vegetius matched the number of centuries in a tribe. Tis is because every unit has a fixed frontage. When the tribes increase overtime, only then do the Romans have the numbers to create posterior centuries. That is centuries belonging and voting with the prior voting centuries. This first occurs in 102 BC, and it is adhering to the first expansion of the tribes as created by Pythagoras.
Does all of this make the Roman legion a rigid beast as Mark would think? The Roman legion is such flexible apparatus it makes other western ancient armies look amateurish. It is a creation of pure Pythagorean geometry that it is best to think of it as moving blocks. Each block within a legion is designed to act independently, and be capable of forming gaps in the line, and every other thing a legion is known to do. You can station the blocks in a single line, or with the frontage of one block. Depending on the blocks you can make multiple blocks deep as Regulus did at Bagradas, or you can position the blocks in such as manner as explained by Polybius at Cannae. To give the legion greater flexibility, the blocks can also be dissected into half blocks. So if you ever turn up at my place and wonder what all those coloured blocks are doing on the floor, it is me working out frontages for a particular battle. If there are only red blocks, you will understand these are the prior centuries. If there are blue and red blocks it is because the blue are the posterior centuries, so you can get an idea of what period I am working on.
Sorry for ranting, but as I know the triarii are not allocated centurions, the primus pilus is in additional to the other 60 centurions. However, I would like to point out that a 40-century legion only has 40 centurions. It makes you wonder, what would be the outcome if Polybius legion was actually a 40 century legion? Would that mean 20 centurions commanded the hastati and 20 centurions the principes. If the 20 centurions of the hastati had to supervise the velites when they were skirmishing, taking the premise there are 1200 velites (sorry Mark), each centurion would supervise 60 velites. If the 20 centurions had to supervise the 600 triarii, each centurion would have 30 triarii. Could it be possible that Polybius has accidentally integrated the details of the 4000 man legion, with the 5000 man legion? If he has done that, that would give everyone a run for their money.
Steven
I have thought about this in relation to Vegetius’ inclusion of both a centurio primi pili (i.e., primus pilus) and a triarius prior in his First Cohort.
Thanks Renatus for reminding me of this source. Now I have a legitimate reason to call the triarii ‘prior.’ Livy (44 33) has the primus pilus present at the council of war, then after the pilus centurion notified what was to be done to each of the centurions under his command. Now if the primus pilus was then required to command the triarii or any other unit, how could he be sure the other centurions are following the plan? The primus pilus has to be independent and mounted so he can move around and supervise the other 60 centurions under his command.
Contrary to the traditional thinking, the triarii have no centurions of their own. The triarii are under the command of the centurions belonging to the principes. The triarii are not really expected to be used in battle, but when they are, after the principes fall back, the centurions of the principes take command of the triarii. This arrangement is very predominant in the organisation of the Servian legion, that is the centurion will fall back with the tired men, then pick up the fresh men under his command and advance towards the enemy.
Whether you like it or not, the legion is a voting body. Both Dionysius and Livy make this clear in their outline of the century assembly. In the century assembly there are no posterior centuries, there are all prior. However, there is the centuria praerogativa. This century votes first and if you see a connection between the first centurion, don’t rule it out as a coincidence until you are prepared to thoroughly investigate it.
The description of the century assembly as given by Cicero has convinced many scholars of a major reform of the century assembly. They are right, and this change to the century assembly had its biggest impact on the property class the triarii belong to. There total numbers got reduced. In its military application, to compensate for this loss, the Romans incorporated Class IV into the legions official organisation. Overtime, Class V and Class VI will be officially incorporated into the legion’s organisation. This is how they keep the legion numbers constant every time the century assembly is forced by the plebs to be a more democratic assembly. Of course they are going to run out of classes to incorporate into the legion, but by then the legion will be a constant.
Before this happens, in the early republican legion, there are no posterior centuries. When it came to voting or assembling for a campaign, the army did this on the Campus Martius, so the Roman knew how much space they needed to assembly the army. It took me awhile, but in my research I have only just noticed that the depth of the legion from Servius Tullius to Vegetius matched the number of centuries in a tribe. Tis is because every unit has a fixed frontage. When the tribes increase overtime, only then do the Romans have the numbers to create posterior centuries. That is centuries belonging and voting with the prior voting centuries. This first occurs in 102 BC, and it is adhering to the first expansion of the tribes as created by Pythagoras.
Does all of this make the Roman legion a rigid beast as Mark would think? The Roman legion is such flexible apparatus it makes other western ancient armies look amateurish. It is a creation of pure Pythagorean geometry that it is best to think of it as moving blocks. Each block within a legion is designed to act independently, and be capable of forming gaps in the line, and every other thing a legion is known to do. You can station the blocks in a single line, or with the frontage of one block. Depending on the blocks you can make multiple blocks deep as Regulus did at Bagradas, or you can position the blocks in such as manner as explained by Polybius at Cannae. To give the legion greater flexibility, the blocks can also be dissected into half blocks. So if you ever turn up at my place and wonder what all those coloured blocks are doing on the floor, it is me working out frontages for a particular battle. If there are only red blocks, you will understand these are the prior centuries. If there are blue and red blocks it is because the blue are the posterior centuries, so you can get an idea of what period I am working on.
Sorry for ranting, but as I know the triarii are not allocated centurions, the primus pilus is in additional to the other 60 centurions. However, I would like to point out that a 40-century legion only has 40 centurions. It makes you wonder, what would be the outcome if Polybius legion was actually a 40 century legion? Would that mean 20 centurions commanded the hastati and 20 centurions the principes. If the 20 centurions of the hastati had to supervise the velites when they were skirmishing, taking the premise there are 1200 velites (sorry Mark), each centurion would supervise 60 velites. If the 20 centurions had to supervise the 600 triarii, each centurion would have 30 triarii. Could it be possible that Polybius has accidentally integrated the details of the 4000 man legion, with the 5000 man legion? If he has done that, that would give everyone a run for their money.
Steven
